Talking Drupal #575 - The Drupal Advocacy Program

[00:00:00] Nic: This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design and development from a group of people with one thing in common: we love Drupal. This is episode 575, the Drupal Advocacy Program. On today's show, we're talking about Drupal advocacy, non-code contribution, and the future with our guest, Tiffany Pharris.

We'll also cover better social sharing buttons as our module of the week. Oh, that is a hard module to say quickly. Welcome to Talking Drupal. Our guest today is Tiffany Pharris. Tiffany is the interim CEO of the Drupal Association. She brings continuity and deep expertise to the role. During this time box engagement, she will focus on strengthening the association's financial and operational foundation and prepare for long-term sustainability while the board handles the permanent CEO search.

Tiffany has contributed to Drupal for almost 20 years and served nearly five terms, non-consecutive, on the Drupal Association board. Tiffany resigned her board seat and treasurer role in July of 2026 prior to the appointment as the interim CEO p- position. Her Drupal roles have included substantial time on the DA Finance Committee and as treasurer, as coordinator for the 2026 Alpha Omega Security Expert in Residence grant, the Drupal 25th anniversary gala chair, DrupalCon Chicago 2011 chair, the Marketplace Initiative in 2025, which is probably the last time you were on the show.

She understands the project, the association's finances, and the realities its partners, contributors, and users face. Welcome back to the show, and thank you for joining us.

[00:01:35] Tiffany: Thanks for having me.

[00:01:37] Nic: I'm Nic Laflin, founder at nLightened Development, and today my co-hosts are, as usual, John Picozzi, solution architect at EPAM.

[00:01:45] John: Howdy

[00:01:47] Nic: And also joining us for his fourth and final week, Tim Sharp, web developer at Appalachian State University. Tim is a web developer at Appalachian State University with over five years of experience helping higher education organizations manage their web presence. He is a co-organizer of Drupal Camp Asheville and loves connecting with other Drupal nerds.

When he's AFK, he's usually tinkering on a project he may or may not finish. Welcome back to the show. It's been a pleasure having you for the last four weeks.

[00:02:15] Tim: Hey, Nic. It's great to be here. This week I'm joining, uh, from Raleigh, where I'm connecting with non-Drupal nerds, just open source nerds in general.

So I've got- ... my little badge. I've got my popcorn. But yeah, happy to be here, and sorry for any audio issues that might, that, that might cause.

[00:02:38] Nic: Awesome. And now to talk about our module of the week, let's turn it over to Martin Anderson-Clutz, a product marketing manager for Drupal at Acquia and a maintainer of a number of Drupal modules and recipes of his own.

Martin, what do you have for us this week?

[00:02:54] Martin: Thanks, Nic. Have you ever wanted to let visitors share your content on social media without loading any tracking scripts or third-party JavaScript? There's a module for that. It's called Better Social Sharing Buttons, and it was created in August of 2018 by Jory Lemons.

Um, the recent releases are by Shalane French. It has a 5.0.0 version available, which works with Drupal 10.1, 11, and 12. It is actively maintained. In fact, that latest release was back in July, adding Drupal 12 support, and it has security coverage. And has 17 open issues, five of which are bugs against older branches.

Now, it is officially in use by 8,347 sites according to drupal.org, and the module supports 16 different services, including Facebook, X, LinkedIn, Blue Sky, Reddit, Pinterest, WhatsApp, Telegram, and email, plus handy extras like print and copy link. Each button is just a plain link to that service's share URL, opening it in a new tab.

No trackers, no external API calls, no ad servers. That's a nice win for performance and for privacy and GDPR since nothing third party loads until a visitor actually clicks. You can place it as a block, as a pseudo field on nodes or paragraphs, or call it from Twig with Twig Tweak. The global settings form lets you enable services and drag them into order, and each block instance can override that list, the icon set, and the sizing.

The module comes with two icon sets: colored squares, which become round if you set the radius to 100%, or flat icons you can color with a CSS fill. The colored set also exposes CSS custom properties, so you can rebrand it from your theme. The icons are minified SVGs in a single sprite, so they load once no matter how many buttons are on the page, and there's also a per-node submodule.

Enable it, uh, per content type and... Excuse me. Enable it if per content type, uh, you want editors to be able to, uh, have the right permission-- with the right permissions to be able to have a checkbox they can use to turn sharing on or off for a particular node. Now, under the hood, it's nearly all Twig. Uh, one template partial per service with just a little JavaScript for copy link, print, and Blue Sky.

Copy link even uses an Aria live region to announce the confirmation screen to readers. The block uses current page's URL and title, so it works on user and term pages too, while the field version shares the node's own URL and title. Developers can tweak what gets shared with an alter hook on the block's items.

Now, f- a couple of caveats. Facebook Messenger needs a Facebook App ID, and meta tag is recommended so services get proper Open Graph previews. And if a service changes its share URL format, the module needs an update. Now, back in episode 548, we covered social media links, and the two look similar. Both give you a block of social network icons, uh, with a choice of icon sets, but they actually solve opposite problems.

Social media links is follow us. It links out to your own profiles using URLs you configure in the block or a field, whereas better social sharing buttons is share this. It builds each link on the fly from the current page's title and URL. So plenty of sites could actually use both. But let's talk about better social sharing buttons.

[00:06:29] John: Yeah. This is actually super interesting, um, because, uh, uh, I actually didn't, didn't realize that they don't, they don't do the, like, the tracking piece, which is, which is nice. And, um, looking at, looking at the implementation here, it seems pretty straightforward. I also think, Nic, to resolve the name issue, we could just call it BSSB.

[00:06:51] Nic: We could. I mean, I, I think that one of the nice things about this type of module is it, it has a lot of little integrations that are value adds. But if you're looking to just... One thing that's really annoying is remembering each time how the share process works, so having a module that kinda keeps that up to date, it's ni- 'cause to be, to be f- honest, for most of my clients, if they need something like this, I'm gonna write that in the Twig template directly, um, and, you know, fill out the pieces I need to fill out so you can just kinda pull it from the, the-

Twig here and-

[00:07:24] John: I mean, yes- Could do it ... but also, uh, you know, I think you hit on something here. Like Facebook, uh, Twitter, uh, you know, I imagine maybe LinkedIn to an extent, like they, they change and update their APIs and their integrations, like-

[00:07:37] Tim: Yeah ...

[00:07:37] John: what seems to be, like, all the time. So, um, I know especially with Instagram, which not listed here, but, um, I, I did know, uh, when I used that integration and d- integrated directly with them, like it changed, like, it seemed like monthly, and I had to update it- Yeah

and troubleshoot it. At least with this, you're getting that kind of solid base where, um, you know, the, the module folk maintainers are kind of managing, managing that integration and updating things- Yeah ... um, as they- Yeah ... as they change.

[00:08:08] Nic: I, I, I think that's part of the value, too. Like, a- and, and the ability to just do it per node, like there's a lot of value add here.

Um, but if you're, you also are just looking for a much simpler one, it, it's also good for just an example. I, I think also the live announce piece is pretty interesting because, again, that's something a lot of people forget to do, and having a super simple, um, click that handles that, I'm gonna look at that example and see if it's something I could update some of my other sites for 'cause I'm not sure that I'm doing that everywhere I should.

[00:08:39] Tim: Yeah. And I- Yeah ... also love that you can style it, you know, with the CSS you can really make it on brand. Um, I mean, I feel like, you know, we've seen a lot of those, those, those shares, and a lot of times, you know, it's either, like, an old icon or it's just, it's, it's not actually an SVG. So I think that this is really cool where you can really start to get that to integrate in to your actual theme of the website.

[00:09:08] John: Yeah.

[00:09:08] Martin: Yeah. I think the, the other thing that's nice about so much of it being implemented through Twig as well is if there are pieces or maybe even specific services where you wanna tweak it a little bit for your particular site, you can override that in your site's theme as well. So y- it gives you a little more flexibility that way, too.

[00:09:24] Nic: Yeah. Also, I, I see that you're a maintainer of this module, uh as well.

[00:09:31] Martin: Yeah. So a couple of years ago, th- uh, definitely being able to do the, the social sharing was something that I really felt like the event platform needed to have built in as a capability. And so at the time, I kind of did a s- uh, scan of, of what seemed like a best of breed approach.

And for a number of the reasons we've talked about, I sort of picked this one out as best of breed. So number one, you know, well maintained, uh, used by a lot of sites, so usually that's an indication there's gonna be good community support, but then also pretty simple in its approach. And of course, critically not having any kind of third party service that, that creates sort of, you know, privacy headaches and those kinds of things.

So, um, it's been really good. I think I ended up becoming a maintainer because I was trying to get event platform up to Drupal 11 a couple of years ago, and this was sort of, like, one of the ones that needed a little nudge along. So I offered to come on board and, and help get that release cut. And, uh, I'm gonna be honest, uh, Shalene has done a much better job than me since then, so.

[00:10:28] John: I, I will say I just, I just added this to my, uh, my personal blog to-do list. So you can, you can see it coming to picozzi.com in the, in the maybe distant future.

[00:10:39] Nic: Yeah. That, that reminds me, does Event Platform ha-have integrations with calendars too? 'Cause that's the other-- It's another similar type of thing where you wanna be able to share to Google or Outlook or Apple or whatever, and most integrations are pretty heavy-handed.

[00:10:56] Martin: So within the Event Platform, there is a way to set sort of key dates for each particular event, and when those display, by default they'll have Add to Calendar links on them. Um, I know there's been conversations around what's the best way to have calendars or calendar integration for the actual sessions themselves.

Personally, I've always kind of preferred the idea, particularly in a community event where a lot of the people are probably already authenticated users, to do more of a, like, My Schedule page, and that's sort of the route that to date Event Platform has gone. Um, so it has, like, a flag integration and, and some other stuff that way.

Um, but you know, it wouldn't be hard to sort of expose the feed and use sort of the same technical approach that's been used on a couple of the DrupalCon Europe sites to date in terms of having more of a front-end piece that can actually push things directly into, like, your, your actual calendar so that all the sessions are in there instead of having, like, a separate place to manage it.

[00:11:57] Nic: I, I think, I think-- That actually makes sense. I think it also speaks to the different type of calendars, 'cause Event Platform is mainly for, like, an event that you're going to, so you're, you're an invested audience member who choosing your own schedule makes sense. But for a lot of the Event Plat- uh, calendars that I build are more public-facing, and so each event is a random different end user.

They're not gonna have a login. They're not gonna have access to anything. They're just adding it to their own calendar so they remember to show up to the, you know, the farmers market or something. Um, so yeah. No, that makes sense. All right. Well, Martin, if, uh, uh, people have been suggesting more and more modules recently, but if people wanted to- Yeah

in fact, to suggest a module of the week, what's the best way for them to do that?

[00:12:44] Martin: So we're always happy to discuss candidates for module of the week in the Talking Drupal channel, uh, on Drupal Slack, or folks can reach out to me directly as mandclu in all of the Drupal and social platforms, and I will also be at Southwestern Ontario Drupal Camp later this week.

So if folks are there too, then by all means, stop by and say hello.

[00:13:05] Nic: Awesome. Well, thank you, Martin. As always, great module of the week, and looking forward to seeing you next week. All right. See you then. See you. All right, Tiffany, before we jump into today's topic, can you, can you tell our listeners, uh, a little bit about the recent changes at the Drupal Association and your new role?

[00:13:27] Tiffany: Yeah, I'd be happy to. Um, I think that, you know, when you get to be a 25-year-old open source project, um, I think it's always good to take a step back and reflect and, um, have a lot of gratitude for w- all the, that got you to where you are, right? It is, it is singular, almost singular achievement for us to get to this point, especially because Drupal is, um, almost without peer in terms of the way that we run our community and we run our governance.

Um, you know, we have a 501c3 in the US, a, a true not-for-profit. We're not a trade association. We don't have a corporate subsidiary, um, that has been providing a stewardship for the project, um, for much of those 25 years, and before that there was one in, in Belgium that did it. And, um, and we don't have a single privileged actor that is supporting us.

Obviously, you know, Dries and, and Acquia have been huge supporters, and Threadline, but they don't get any advantage over any other firm like you see in, in other open source communities. So, um, we're not entirely individual driven like Apache, and we're not really corporate driven like Eclipse or the Linux Foundation.

We just have always kind of followed our own path. And I think that with the moment that we're in and how AI is disrupting both what it means to be a maintainer of open source software and what it means to be someone who works primarily in the agency space, I think that it's a good moment to look at, um, you know, how we might broaden that base of support that we've, uh, certainly enjoyed, right?

I, I think it's a surprise to no one if I say that Drupal's largely gotten to where we are now because of, um, you know, web development, web design agencies of about 15 to 75 people. And if we look at the contributions, if we look at, you know, who supports Drupal, either in terms of making modules or in terms of, uh, financial support for the infrastructure and DrupalCon itself, or in terms of- Of, of actually the advocacy that happens, it's disproportionately concentrated in the, that agency space.

And our agencies, um, like the rest of the, the web industry, they're hurting right now. AI is very much disrupting it in terms of, um, the value proposition as well as the, the pricing model. So as we look ahead to the next 25 years of Drupal, I think it's a good moment to look and say, "Okay, well, what have we done?

How has it worked? Is it still fit for purpose, and what do we do now?" So that's, that's kind of the, the reason why I'm, I'm in as an interim CEO, is that I... It's nice to be able to come in and, and be responsible for that transition and that transformation, and then know, um, at the same time that I have to operationalize it and so that it can be handed off to someone else in a, in, you know, another year or so.

[00:16:22] Nic: So, sorry, I, I want to... This is a little bit of a tangent, and this is really early for a tangent, but you just- Whew ... you said 25 years in the future. Yeah. So we're thinking about a 50-year-old project. Mm-hmm. I, I'm curious if, like, what are... Are there analogs in the world for... I mean, we have, you know, programming languages that are certainly older than 50 years.

Um, are there, are there analogs to open source projects like this that are anywhere near that age that we can look to, or are we one of the-

[00:16:56] John: Ha.

[00:16:57] Nic: Spear- spearheads of long-running open source projects?

[00:17:03] Tiffany: I mean, I, I think that we're right among the-- I, I would consider Drupal a, a second wave open source project, so obviously we can look to those that are a little bit older, like Linux, that, you know.

But I, I don't think that's quite- Yeah ... the time horizon. I do think that this is- Yeah ... where you go to, to look at, at commons, things that have existed for a really long time, that have been a shared resource. There are parts of it that can be enjoyed by as many people as possible, right? That's like our code, right?

The more people who use our code- Yeah ... you know, it-- those costs vanish to zero. And then there are, you know, what, what Elinor Ostrom called, like, the rivalrous parts, the things that get used up or the things that cost us more money the more people who use it. And that's the part that I'm really working to bring a lot of awareness to, right?

There-- The infrastructure, for example. The infrastructure costs scale to infinity, um, especially, you know, now that, that we're in the age of AI and, and-

[00:17:54] Nic: Yeah ...

[00:17:54] Tiffany: tokens and, you know, we, we have this amazing, uh, uh, I don't wanna call it a virtuous cycle. I guess maybe it's a vicious cycle where, you know, AI creates more pressure on maintainers to the point where the only way maintainers can really do that is-- can handle that influx is with AI.

And I'm like, "That's a pretty genius sort of model, um, if you're an evil genius, I suppose." But those are the things we have to kind of respond to. But I do think that there are places in the world where common resources and common pools have been shared for hundreds and thousands of years. So there are-- There's a, there's a set of rules around what makes one successful versus what doesn't.

And a lot of it has to do with, um, you know, making sure that extractive behavior is discouraged. And so when I think about the frame for how I'm looking at Drupal right now, Drupal is and has been for, for many, many years a, you know, several billion dollar industry. There are a lot of people making a lot of money off of Drupal, and the difficulty that, you know, we've always faced is we just don't capture much of that value.

It, it drains out of the ecosystem, and so not a lot of it gets invested back. So I see my task as not so much creating new value or finding new programs for Drupal as much as it is, um, making sure that less of the value that Drupal and the community create leaks out.

[00:19:16] Nic: Yeah.

[00:19:17] John: So interim CEO, uh, in your intro you said it was time boxed.

Like, what, what is the time box? Is it six months, a year, two years?

[00:19:29] Tiffany: Yeah. The, my original contract was a six-month contract, and it had a six-month option. And, um, you know-

[00:19:36] John: Okay ...

[00:19:36] Tiffany: uh, I think selfishly, I would, I would kind of like it to go through, I think, um, Edinburgh would be a great place to do a handoff.

Um, and so I think the board's feeling a lot of pressure. Um, just given, you know, all the things that are surfacing, there's so many different moving parts right now that they don't wanna open up the search until it's really clear, um, that the organization has a very stable financial model that, um- Mm-hmm

you know, that, that I'm, I'm very much also focused on eliminating the technical debt that has slowed down, um, you know, the agility of both the Drupal Association itself and the project. Um, there's just a lot of things that if I can get those tidied up and, and tied off, it's a much cleaner transition to the next CEO.

Um, so I, I'm, you know, in my mind, um, it'll be sometime next summer or early next fall.

[00:20:28] John: Got it. Okay. And you touched on this a little bit. Uh, it sounds like your, your primary focuses in your tenure are, um, solidifying that, uh, financial model so that we can ensure, you know, the Drupal Association can, can function into the future, and then, um, working to kind of clean up technical debts, um, and, and put that in a better place than it is today.

Would tho- w- would you say those are your two major focuses, or are there other things that you're focusing on that, that I didn't mention?

[00:21:00] Tiffany: Yeah. I tend to think of it in, like, three buckets, right? Okay. So, um, if you think about the Drupal Association, at our best, we're what I- I'm calling a catalytic convener, right?

You know, we, our job is to recognize, connect, and empower the makers, the patrons, and the advocates of Drupal. Like, I, w- when I'm successful and when the DA is successful, we make doing the right thing both easy and expected. Mm-hmm. And across many different sectors, it's not yet right now. So I'm focused obviously first on that foundation.

Um, so it's both a financial and an operational transparency. I'm looking at everything program by program, understanding what value it creates, what it costs, and what it delivers, and kind of tweaking that. Um, you know, it's not, uh, with a, with... I have such a strong mission focus that, and, and that mission isn't about maximizing revenue at the DA.

Um, what I care about is maximizing the value delivered to Drupal, and that could be by the DA, it could be through the DA, or it could be outside of the DA. All three of those are Valid options to me. And so when we-- financial resources that are already flowing into Drupal, are they delivering the greatest value for the community possible?

So looking at things like, um, you know, DrupalCon. Obviously, DrupalCon Orlando is already largely set in terms of what is gonna, um, like, the, the finances of it. But, um, looking at our finances in a way that I can help the board make better decisions, um, you know, so that they understand that DrupalCon actually doesn't make money, hasn't for several years.

Um, and then we can have that conversation about, like, okay, well, does it make sense the amount of sponsorship dollars that are going into it, that, that it takes to run it like we're running it? Um, are there other things we could do? And I think the answer is yes. I'm really excited to work on, um, North America 2028 and what that looks like.

So the foundation is obviously first, and then the, the second thing I think about is, like How do I make innovation easy? Like, how do I remove friction- Mm ... for the people who are building Drupal and supporting Drupal? So a lot of, um, what I've done so far is, is I'm actually pretty good at two things.

Pretty good at saying no, that we're not gonna do this anymore. Um, so, you know, jobs.drupal.org is a great example. Like, it had had one post in the last three months, and I was like, "Done. We're just done. We're gonna deprecate it, gone." Um, you know, really accelerating, um, removing all the Drupal 7 on drupal.org.

Um, you know, so I'm, I'm excited for the end of the year. I've, I've p- put a task out there. Like, I would like to have one website. No more new, no more www. Like, just I would like one website, please and thank you. And I would like that, that site to talk, to speak more clearly, um, so that the public understands what Drupal is, what it can do, those sort of things.

Um, and then, you know, how do we, you know, just how do, how do we make sure that, that n- not only do we have a website that's on the current version of Drupal, which would be, um, a first in many, many, many years. Um, but how can that website be, showcase the best of what Drupal can do? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I think when we have, have existed a legacy website for so long, you forget, and it becomes hard to, to imagine what that future looks like.

So I want drupal.org to be, have the best of Drupal. And then aspirationally, I want it to be, like, one of the best Drupal sites on the planet. Like, like, there's just a whole bunch of things we can do there. I think that helps us all. And it moves to the last piece, which is I, I think we need to help the public understand Drupal better, right?

That's our job. Like, we are a 501[c][3]. We're not a trade association. So what that means is that we serve the public, that it's in the public interest that Drupal exists, and that everything we do needs to benefit that public. So it gives a lot of coherence to the vision, and helping, helping others understand, you know, um, what Drupal's good for, how it helps, how they can get involved, how they could use it.

That's all part of that public mission, and that's, that's really what we're here to talk about in terms of the advocacy program here today. But, you know, for me, I think that improving the way that we disseminate and talk about Drupal's story is a, is a big part of how I, I think, um, my tenure will be measured.

[00:25:35] John: I, I, I, I wanna go, I wanna go down one, one additional tangent there, um, because something, um, something... A- a- as you were speaking, and I loved everything you were saying, um, it, it kind of like a light went on for me, and I think, like, looking at, um, previous- CEOs, executive directors of the Drupal Association, right?

Um, all great people, all, you know, did the, did the work that was being asked of them. But, like, I, I think you, you bring a valuable perspective of, A, being a CEO of a company, right? Mm-hmm. And it being, it being a Drupal agency, right? You, you have, you have insights there that I don't think previous, um, folks in your, in your role have had.

And I think your- Certainly not

[00:26:27] Tiffany: for a while.

[00:26:28] John: Yeah. And I think your ability to be able to come in and go, "Hey, we're, jobs.drupal.org, like, eh, not the greatest thing for our ... Not, not the greatest thing for us to focus on and spend time on," right? Like, "Let's go," right? To make those kind of quick decisions, I, I think you're in a very unique place to be able to do that.

And, you know, uh, uh, I, I think it, you know, the, the game plan makes sense to me. Not that anybody's asking, but the game plan makes sense to me, right? And, like, I think- That's it ... like, you know, at the end of your, you know, six months to a year tenure, like, if we're in that spot where we have one drupal.org, we have a financial, um, stability, um, you know, I think we're in a great spot for somebody to pick that up and run with it.

Question On and this is, this is where the, the rabbit, the, the hole in the rabbit hole comes in. But, like, on the financial stability, it seems like every couple of years we're talking about the Drupal Association's financial stability. Um, and, you know, s- building that s- and solidifying that foundation so that we can, um, do, you know, do, continue on for the next 25 plus years.

I'm wondering if, if you can just quickly kind of synopsize why, like, this time's going to be different than the previous, you know, three or four times.

[00:27:50] Tiffany: I'll do my best. Um- Sure ... that's both the answer and the acknowledgement of the question. Um, uh, I think that if we look at the times when the DA had some, um, some issues, right?

So the first one was in 2016. The 2016 was caused by building on a technical team under the assumption that, one, we were using, uh, the reserves to do it, and it was under the assumption that DrupalCon itself would continue to grow. So, a r- for the first 10 years of being a 501[c][3] in the US, um, we focused really on that educational mission, and DrupalCon and Drupal.org were the two channels that we had to do that.

So it had DrupalCon continued to, to grow to a 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 person conference, then it would've been a different situation. It didn't, right? It kind of plateaued around 3,000 and then kind of settled in around 2,500, 2,600 people. And so the commitments for DrupalCon were made several years out. They got to the point where, where, you know, Drupal Association at that time was very much an events company.

Um, and so it was focused around that. The commitments were, um, were made several years in advance and around these expectations that it would grow. So that created a lot of pressure in that place at the same time that we were trying to professionalize the team that was working on the Drupal.org channel.

So, um, you know, that's around the time that Tim Lennon was brought in. I think, um, Brendan was brought in around that time. Obviously, Neil has been here pretty much since day one. Um- Yeah ... not, not quite, but you know, he, he was very, very early and, and we are super grateful to have had his, his steady leadership, um, on Drupal.org, um, for all those years.

Um, and, and so that was different, right? So that was basically, okay, well, how do we... what could we do as an events company that was a little more stable? So there was a, there was a bit of a hiccup that had to be worked through the system in that way. Then of course, you had, um, the DA did not move away from being an events company.

Um, and it, um, that became a problem during the, the pandemic, right? Where there were no events. But if you actually look at the finances between the generosity of the community and the government, um, uh, social, like, safety net programs that, that were in place and during the pandemic, the DA actually did fine, um, not hosting DrupalCon.

Which should've been the first clue that maybe the economics of DrupalCon were changing. And, um, I think that signal wasn't clearly received and clearly understood as the in-person events came back. Again, there were contracts that had been signed before the pandemic, and they did kind of the best, but then the last couple of years were new contracts, and it wasn't really responsive to, um, what was there.

And, and I think One of the things, one of the, the perspectives I have is to be able to come in and say, "We're not an events company." And so, um, you know, you'll see one of the first changes that I made is we don't have any event staff on staff anymore. We're not an events company. We exist to support the Drupal project.

And so that is the orientation of every person on staff. There are partners who do nothing but manage events. I care that, and, and I think the, the Drupal Association staff and the, and the, um, the, those who volunteer from the community to work on DrupalCon, we can provide the content of the DrupalCon. We don't need to understand how to negotiate with hotels or other things.

And so we're partnered with a great firm I'm, I'm excited about, um, to, to do that. I'm starting in Orlando, that's kind of our ramp up year, and you'll see more of that with Vancouver. But it, it is an acknowledgement we're not an events company anymore. Um, and I think that it is about understanding that we serve to exist for the benefit of the public furthered through Drupal.

And I think there's another big change that happened, and I think it's where the pressure, um, of being events company really, uh, that wasn't delivering a lot of, um, money for the infrastructure anymore, um, started to, to come into play, which is I was on the board when Composer was, um, you know, was put in place, right?

When we started to do the signing and the packaging. And I can tell you, it was never communicated to the board. There was no cost plan put in place. It was like, I'm not even sure it was mentioned. It may- and if it was, it was a footnote. So it wasn't a strategic decision to invest in the packaging infrastructure, and that has driven our costs and will continue to drive our costs, um, even before dealing with the onslaught from, from AI.

So I, I do think that us understanding and stepping into this role and what it means to be an open source steward is what changes it right now. And so I think when you, when you move past that we are, you know, an events company and that that's a channel to drive business for the agencies that are in ecosystem, like, I think that changes the conversation to what value we- are we delivering, to whom, how can we help them understand that?

And how can we help them understand the costs that, that are associated with that so that they can offset it or use less? Like, for me, it's not about ... I'm, I'm interested in the Drupal Association and Drupal thriving, right? So I'm not here to say that that growth is the only way out. And so a successful plan, a sustainability plan accommodates growth, and certainly encourages growth, but isn't predicated on growth.

And I think all the prior plans I've ever seen or experienced on the board were predicated on if we build it, they will come level growth

[00:33:28] John: Got it. So that, that all makes 100% sense, and it goes back to my original statement of your past as a CEO, your past as a Drupal agency, uh, individual. Like, i- i- your past with the Drupal community is all helping you to guide these decisions and, and build this plan to be able to push this thing forward for the next 25 years.

So, um, we have a ton more questions. We are gonna, we are gonna jump into those, but I wish you, I wish you a lot of luck in your, your interim endeavors.

[00:34:02] Tiffany: Thank you. I'm gonna need your help. Everyone's help.

[00:34:06] John: Well, we, we are here to serve

[00:34:11] Tim: Yeah. I'd also say that, um, another skill that you, you said you have two skills, but I think that a third skill is your communication skills, um, and the transparency. Um, I, I didn't even really know about all of the finances, but I'm also relatively new, but I loved how you're making everything transparent, and I think that that's where you really should start to build trust, is that transparency.

And so, like, yeah, you're a great communicator. Thanks for writing all that good stuff.

[00:34:39] Tiffany: Oh, thank you. I actually was just self-criticizing this morning. I'm not writing enough. Like, to a certain extent, I'm doing so much, it's hard to take a minute to pause to, to write. And I know I feel like I have probably four or five different posts that I need to get out.

Um, so I ... That's why I really appreciate the opportunity to be here today to talk about things. But, um, you know, it, it is, um, it, it ... I think that's part of it, is really to help ... Transparency is the, is the key that underlies, um, everything that has to happen here for, for Drupal. Um, you know, and I think that's the way I can bring the receipts.

Obviously, you know, as Nic mentioned, I, I did not divest from my firm. Now I've been arm's length from it. I'm not dealing with any day to day of it. Um, but, you know, there's always, uh, legitimate questions that can be asked, like am I using this position to, to, to ... for the bene- for inappropriate benefit? And I'm, and I'm

And I feel like sunshine is the best, you know, antiseptic, right? Uh, uh, disinfectant there, right? If I just show all the receipts that I have and what I'm doing, then I think that that, um, becomes clear and, and it certainly does build trust. Because I think that's ultimately in an attention economy, trust is the most important currency.

And when I think about the next 25 years for Drupal, trust is actually a really big part of it, and I think that helps to define what the DA's role can be and should be, is that we can, we can help, um, the public understand, um, you know, who's engaging with Drupal in a sustainable way and who works on security or who, you know, works on these modules.

Like, that's the piece for me, and that's, that, that underlies a lot of what I'm looking to do as I transform the Drupal certified program

[00:36:28] Tim: Okay. So, uh, y-you touched on it before, but, uh, so what's the Drupal Advocacy Program, um, and what are, uh, the problems we're trying to solve with the Drupal Advocacy Program?

[00:36:41] Tiffany: The Drupal advocacy program, it is about closing that gap between what Drupal can do and what people think it can do, right? There's the, there's the reality and then the perception, and we have to care about both.

Um, I think that Drupal is filled with innovators and who, um, love to talk about what they're doing. But I also know from many, many years in the Drupal community that we have something known as a pioneer's dilemma, which is that we are innovating years before the market realizes that they need this thing.

And so the innovators are always way out ahead in innovating, and there's a market timing issue. Not that we don't have what the market needs ready when the market needs it, it's that, that we've moved on with our story. We're talking about what's next. And so I think it's about doing a little bit of time shifting and making sure that everyone in Drupal, even, even those who are very, very familiar with it, understand what we can do.

Um, and especially the newest ones, um, you know, around AI and other things. Like I, I really... I saw some interesting data recently that even Drupal specialists, um, have the same gap as the public. That, that, you know? So we can't repeat a story, we can't promote a story that most of us don't understand. So if the association can kind of be the center of that, we want to make sure that we provide this very accurate, very sourced story and some shared standards around what that looks like so that our community members and the agencies and the partners that we have can use their own voices and talk to their audiences in a way, um, that helps it, you know, helps that story become a, a lot clearer for everyone, right?

Everybody- Yeah ... benefits when Drupal is understood, and none of us can do it alone. Um, so as a convener, I want to bring everybody together, and then I want to, you know, as, as a catalyst, I want to make it easy for us to then amplify those network effects. I think a lot of the talk around Drupal has been around what we don't have or what we don't do.

And- Yeah ... I think I'm interested in like what, what do we have? We have a ton of people who are so generous to share what they know, who love Drupal. Nobody else has that. Like, the- Yeah ... it's just amazing what we have.

[00:38:59] Nic: Yeah. And, and beyond the community, we also... I mean, there's technical things that we have solved, like deployments and language and translation and permissions- Governance

and roles and governance, all that kind of stuff. Like we, it... And the, the fact that the core team governance is separate from the association and from any particular company. I mean, there, there's a lot of stuff. But th- there's, there's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. Um, on the advocacy page, there's a, a phrase that I think puts a really fine point on it that Drupal is light years ahead of its reputation.

W- why do you think that gap exists and, and h- how do we begin to close that? You, you kind of hinted at it a little bit with the, um, innovator's dilemma, but how do we begin to close the gap between what Drupal can do and what people think Drupal can do?

[00:39:49] Tiffany: Well, good software doesn't, like, promote itself, right?

So I think, you know, Dries talked about it in the Driesnote as magical thinking. Um, I, I also think that a lot of us are focused on this idea of, like, if, if we are the best, there's this, the myth of the meritocracy, right? That if we are technically the best, that is enough. And, um, and then I also think that we, that we talk a lot about the Drupal island, but we do mostly talk to ourselves.

So drupal.org and our events are largely built for people who are already in the community. Um, uh, I think there's an- another component to this, which is that a lot of our best work is, um, is a little quiet. Like, I, I always used to say that when, um, you know, wearing my other hat, like when we did our work well, no one noticed it.

And, you know, that was because, you know, if-- especially if you work in government or universities or big enterprises who run these really serious and extensive platforms on Drupal, they don't write about it because it's part of how they deliver their service. And, and so I just think that there's a lot about what Drupal does that has been quiet and strong for so many years, and that's just not

[00:41:05] Nic: enough.

Or the agencies don't let you write about it in certain ways, right? Mm-hmm. Like you're working with a government agency or-- although with the new, I forget the term we talked about last week, but with the new law, um, around government needing to open source as much as it can, I think there's a lot more appetite for writing about it.

But a lot of universities still want people-- don't want you to put on the, um, on your, your, uh, case study page that you worked with that university, right?

[00:41:35] Tiffany: That's right. So it's hard. I, I think they worry about it being considered, um, you know, undue promotion or an endorsement. And I think that that's where the DA can help, is that we can create patterns around what that looks like, and we can also help you white label it when they don't, right?

So that, that can't be the blocker. So a-again, those are the places where, you know, we can maybe help. Um, and so I think part of the, the challenge that we face now is that Drupal 7 was one of the most successful projects of all time, open source, right? Not just one of the most successful version of, of Drupal, but it was around for a really long time.

And a lot of the copy that is written, a lot of the content out there, both on our site and other sites, is about Drupal 7. And so when AI starts to pick up, right, it's a probabilistic machine, so it's gonna base it around the volume of content, not necessarily the recency or the relevance of that content.

So when people learn about Drupal, either personally or through AI assistance or agents like they're- they're going for a public record that's a little dated, right? And, and so there, there's just so much content out there about that, that we, I think, have to do a better job of, again, at the DA side. Like I'm really interested in content strategy, so you're actually gonna see in the next, um, I think week or so, we're gonna put out a- an RFP around some content strategy for drupal.org.

Um, you know, how we use the content and wield the content and, and the authority that we have, um, as the drupal.org domain, but then how others talk about it too.

[00:43:08] John: So maybe I'm missing something here, um, or maybe I, I just need it re-explained to me, but like I'm thinking Like, people have been advocating for Drupal for a long time.

I have 575-ish podcasts about Drupal and how great it is and, and all the things that it can do. People have been writing blog posts, talking at conferences, social media posts. Like, there's a lot of surface area out there about Drupal and, and, and all the, all the stuff that it can do. And maybe a lot of that is just kind of, like, internal stuff that the other Drupal people are reading and, and learning about.

But I wonder, like, what, what's different about kind of formalizing this advoc- as an advocacy program? Like, what is, what is the, what is the change here that is happening that's, that's gonna kinda, like, flip the switch, as it were?

[00:44:07] Tiffany: Well, I think you're right. Advocacy has always happened, right? Drupal people love to talk about what we're doing, and we are super generous about it, too.

Like, we will tell you everything. Like, even if it's not in a blog post or whatever, we just love, we love to talk about it. We love to share. Um, but the advocacy so far has been really scattered and also unrecognized, like unamplified. And in the attention economy of today, we, we need to have a little bit of focus.

So this is where the association can make it easy, right? We can pick a theme that we're all talking about at the same time. We can share sources. Um, I, I also think that even though there are a lot of people who create that original content, um, I, I don't think that we've ever really felt like we all had permission to remix other people's things.

Um, you know, it's, it's about feeling out the lines of the co-opetition. You know, do I really amplify something from another firm? Can I, can I re-edit this, you know, um, like, presentation somebody else did? Like, is that okay? And we're saying, "Yeah, actually, please do that." You're gonna get credit for it. The original author's gonna get credit for it.

And, and then, then we come to this place where it's expected, right? So this is how we can help with the shared timing, the recognition, really making sure that this is considered a normal part of contributing, right? So Drupal has had a, a contribution system since 2014, and one of the changes you're gonna be seeing over the next, you know, uh, quarter or two is, is differentiating between making credits, patron credits, and advocacy credits.

So elevating advocacy up as its own area, and not just having that be about going to Drupal camps, but going to, you know, as, as WebChicks been advocating, going to the AI meetups, listening, sponsoring, talking about what, how to solve problems, not talking about how Drupal does things. Like, those are, those are subtle shifts I think that the community is very ready for.

And, um, you know, I'm a big fan of, of, uh, whose line is it anyway? You know, all the, all the points are, are, are made up and the scores don't really matter, and yet I will tell you that they do influence people's behavior, and they help us communicate what's important at different times, and they, they shift, um, the impact we can have.

[00:46:25] John: So I, I see that there's a great question from Bernardo in the chat kind of about getting off that, that Drupal island. Um, he's asking, um, is the Drupal Association kind of planning to maybe have booths at events, um, that are non-Drupal events, like maybe a WordCamp or, um, you know, Tim's at All Things Open, maybe at, at All Things Open.

And, like, a- as a way to kind of, like, foster this program and kind of get it out as, uh, you know, outside of that kind of Drupal echo chamber, if you will

[00:47:03] Tiffany: I think you're more likely to see us encouraging and, and giving points to the people who actually do go and speak at those events. Yeah. You know, booths are great.

We've certainly had programs that way before, and there's been, um, you know, we had one at, um, at Web Summit a couple years ago that was put on. Um, there were a couple of, um, DCPs who came together and presented as Drupal. You see this, I think there was, uh, Drupal South's been doing a lot of work, um- Yeah

getting booths. And w- we can serve in a convener role. Like, if there is a conference where several DCPs wanna get together and represent Drupal, happy to do that. We also do negotiate, um, agreements, like booth sharing agreements, where give me a booth at yours and I'll give you a booth at mine sort of thing.

Um, and so that can help make that, that better. Um, I think that that's, that doesn't play to our strengths, right? We, that takes a lot of money, right? And, and as we all know, the cost isn't in the booth or even in the, the setup of the booth and the design of the booth and, it, it's about getting the people there and, um, and, and transportation, hotel, that kind of stuff.

And that's I think- Yeah ... a bigger, a bigger ask. But I think right now, making sure that people outside of the echo chamber of people who are already really interested in Drupal, piercing that and making sure that they're hearing about how problems have been solved, and then be surprised that it was with Drupal, like, that's the biggest thing we want them to hear, and that's something that doesn't take any money.

It, it takes- Yeah ... we can coordinate that all day long. Um, but I just don't, I don't see the impact that we would have in terms of exhibiting. But I do think that if- Yeah ... you were already gonna go to a conference, issue a talk, and have that talk not have Drupal in the title. Like, talk about the problems that it solves.

Reintroduce it to people who will be surprised about what modern Drupal can do. Yeah. Most people think of an older version of Drupal when they think of Drupal.

[00:48:59] John: Like a crawl- Even folks that still hate it ... crawl, walk, run approach, where, where crawling is, is just, you know, getting to the events and talking about the Drupal stuff.

[00:49:08] Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:09] Tim: That was, that was a pro tip right there, of not putting Drupal in the title. Because as I was showing with the All Things Open, the, the, the schedule, that's just, like, so-

[00:49:24] Nic: Massive ...

[00:49:25] Tim: massive. When you're looking, the title is really, you know, it, it, it's a lot. It, it, it, you're, you're just choosing between, like, 10 different events at the same time.

Um- Yeah ... and I love that, you know, uh, leav- leaving Drupal till the end, how did I solve this? You know?

[00:49:46] Tiffany: That's right. Because ultimately, a tool exists to help you get stuff done.

[00:49:52] Tim: Right.

[00:49:53] Nic: Yeah.

[00:49:53] Tim: Right. Um, yeah, so the, the, I, and I think that's, it's cool that they have the program encourages people to, you know, really start to use their own voice.

Um, and, and, and start to also, like, target their own audiences. Um, so it's the hope that, uh, folks outside the community will start to talk about Drupal. Um, and I guess, and so how do we initially attract those folks to Drupal?

[00:50:20] Tiffany: Absolutely. I think the initial audience, however, is us, um, because even folks who work with Drupal are not available or, or really are not aware of what the newest available features are or where things are going.

I think right now there's just a lot to kind of keep up with, especially as our industry is going through such rapid change. There's just so many things. So I think, you know, helping those who are already using Drupal really be conversant around what, what it can do, um, what it already does do is the first thing.

But then as we work to get outside that bubble, um, you know, I think it is about going to, um, JavaScript meetups. Like, if we think about what got us here, right? It was a bunch of Drupal meetups. Like, I think m- many of us, probably the first time you met someone in person who did Drupal was at a Drupal meetup, right?

I don't, I don't think that the path forward is about Drupal meetups. I think it's about us going to a JavaScript meetup or an AI, um, meetup or publishing something in an industry publication. Um, you know, folks who aren't gonna self-identify or be attracted to, you know, a lead that mentions Drupal in it because they think, "Oh, that's not for me," right?

I, I wanna surprise people, and I think we do surprise people. So, you know, ultimately, the best, most compelling thing is when you hear these peer voices. Like, you know, people choose platforms because other people recommend it or because they saw a talk about how the same situation that they're dealing with, the same problems that they're having were solved by this other thing, and they're, they can, they can opt into that.

And I, I don't think that we... Drupal has such strong name recognition, brand recognition, but it's, um, you know, again, they're, they're thinking about us, a past version of us, as opposed to the current version of us. So we have to kind of go back to our roots, which is, you know, go and do those demos. And at the end, as you said, like, the stinger is, "Oh, and I did it with Drupal," right?

That's okay. Um-

[00:52:23] John: I don't, I don't even know if it's like, if it's like the stinger. Well, I guess it is the end, but I mean, I, I think, like, uh, the way I look at it and, and think about the way, what you're saying is, like, focus it on the business problem that you're solving, right?

[00:52:37] Nic: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:37] John: And, like, build a great story of like, here's the problem that we had.

Here's the, you know, what we had to do. Here's the work that we want to do. And then that last part is like, oh, we chose Drupal because it has translation, because it has structured content, it has Canvas, it has AI support. Like, here's why we chose Drupal and why we're, why, why we succeeded, right? Right. I mean, I think, like- Even, like even if we were to challenge a lot of folks in the Drupal community to, like, look at their next set of talks for DrupalCon Orlando and, and, you know, DrupalCons into next year.

Like, just restructure them, eh, to be business, business case focused or problem, problem focused and, like, leave that, like, Drupal module list and that, that Drupal, like, the, the, the reasons why Drupal was great for the end, for, like, the last five minutes, right? Yeah. Or even better, let people ask, like, "Oh, okay.

Well, why did, why was Drupal the right choice," right?

[00:53:35] Nic: Yeah.

[00:53:35] Tiffany: Yeah, I think-

[00:53:37] Nic: I, I was gonna say, I mean, saying that, John, kind of, and maybe this is where maybe I'm spoiling a surprise or something, but say, what we're saying now makes me wonder if, um, DrupalCon on some level would be better served to be combined with something bigger like All Things Open, right?

Because if you, if you, if you end up with... I mean, I don't know how big All Things Open is. That's a huge schedule, but if you just add a Drupal track and the DrupalCon people showed up there, 2,500, 2,600 people at All Things Open, people will notice Drupal there. I mean, it'll be a loud voice. And we would still get a lot of the, a lot of the value that the community gets from the DrupalCon is the community meeting each other, core team meeting for things.

Mm-hmm. Dries giving a, his Dries note, right?

[00:54:24] Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:25] Nic: Do those have to happen at a Drupal specific event?

[00:54:29] Tiffany: No, they don't.

[00:54:30] Nic: Yeah.

[00:54:30] Tiffany: I, and I actually think the, the question is, um- When we go to these other events, um, are we going to talk to additional developers? And I certainly think that's one of our audiences, but I also think that the decision makers who pick Drupal- Yeah

um, is another one of those audiences. And so I don't see this as an either/or. Um, if we can reimagine what DrupalCon, the economics of DrupalCon, so let's say instead of needing $600,000 of sponsorship for DrupalCon, I only need 200, what do I do with the, uh, you know, the extra 400,000, um, either directly or indirectly?

Again, I don't care if it comes to me or through me or outside of me, I care that it, it benefits Drupal, right? So I love what the AI initiative is doing.

[00:55:15] Nic: Please fund... Okay, I will tell you. Fund, so fund the core release managers, fund another core committer or two. That's what we desperately need, and fund- I agree

the infrastructure. Fu- the, I think the number one thing, uh, s- sorry, this is a, a quick aside. I think the number one thing that the Drupal community- It's never quick ... needs is, I'll be, I'll be brief. The number one thing the Drupal community needs right now is funding for the team to figure out how to shorten the length of time the packaging takes, so when a security update comes out, it's not 30 to 35 minutes of them waiting before it's actually available.

Um- I

[00:55:48] Tiffany: agree

[00:55:49] Nic: That's, I think that's probably- So- ... the critical thing that needs to be solved at the moment. Anyway.

[00:55:53] John: I think you, I think you- Oh ... I think you said something interesting there, Nic, and I, I, I'm sure people are going to send, send messages about the fact that you just suggested that maybe DrupalCon isn't DrupalCon, and maybe we, we have a track at another conference.

Um, but I will say from a business standpoint, um, that would probably be a lot more appealing because, um-

[00:56:17] Nic: Yes ...

[00:56:17] John: as, as working for a larger company and going to DrupalCons over the last, you know, five, four or five years, um, I have found that the value for, for companies to find new business and, and gain, gain leads from DrupalCon is, is, is not necessarily there.

Limited. Yeah, limited. That's a great way to put it, right?

[00:56:42] Tiffany: Let's talk about that is limited. Yeah.

[00:56:43] John: So being at something like All Things Open and having a wide variety of technologies and, and, and people in the, in the ocean of possibility there- Yeah, but you- ... is, is much more appealing.

[00:56:56] Nic: A- a- and to Tiffany's earlier point, like if you're sh- if you're just talking about how you solve the problem, they're not gonna care that the underlying thing was Drupal.

So you're bringing in, you're bringing in- Yeah ... fresh prospects. Okay, back to advocacy. So one of the things that the guidelines provide is it makes a couple of important distinctions, I think. You know, it makes a distinction between a proof and a claim, and- Mm-hmm ... good content versus self-promotion. 'Cause y- there's, the contribution system in Drupal is great, a lot of it because it's curated, because it's moderated.

[00:57:27] Tim: Right.

[00:57:27] Nic: The adv- the barrier to general advocacy is a little bit lower, so the, the temptation to game it is a lot higher, I think. So wh- why are these distinctions important to make sure that the advocacy that's going out there is valuable for the community as well as the people doing it, and, and how did you come up with these, um, these guidelines?

[00:57:47] Tiffany: Well, I think that the, um, again, if we come back to the fact that we're a 501[c][3], right? Um, we're all about education, and so that's one of the ways that we could deliver the public good around Drupal. It's not just the code, but it's the education around it. So education has to be accurate, and every piece needs to rest on something that people can check, um, or more increasingly, your AI agent can check, right?

So whether it's a deployed project or a demo, external article, recorded talk. So if a claim in the source kit doesn't match the experience, we want people one, to tell us so we can tweak it. But it's also how, um, from a, from a, an AEO perspective or a GEO perspective, we're going to, to help reset those expectations, um, in, um, in the LLMs, um, as well.

So I think that's a big piece around a proof versus a claim. And, uh, I think that it's-- if I'm being honest, it- getting to the point where Drupal makes claims is a stretch already. Like we have-- we've traditionally been, uh, very modest or very quiet about the things that we do. And then so now having to kind of encourage the community not only to make claims, but also to provide the proof behind it, that's really what's gonna, um, have a much bigger impact, um, than, um, than, than just even going to the claim per-perspective.

But, you know, and I think from the self-promotion perspective, um, it's again about the, the authority that it conveys. So we're here to crowdsource information. We're not astroturfing. That's why we're not giving people talking points. We're saying, "These are the themes. This is the proof we already have.

You may have your own proof. You may have your own experience." We're just encouraging people to tell those stories, um, your Drupal story, not just, you know, your services story, right? This isn't just about you. It's the, it's the rising tide raises all ships moment because you telling a, a, a proof-driven story about how you delivered results for someone that not only helps Drupal, but it also helps your, your, your agency or your, your own profile in a way that just saying, "Oh, we did, we did these things," or cataloging kind of what happened, um, wouldn't

[00:59:58] John: So I, I think I'm, I'm gonna take a different slant on the next question, 'cause obviously I'm a, I'm a big proponent of non-code contribution.

I've talked at DrupalCons about non-code contribution. Um, there are several ways to participate in the advocacy program, whether it's- Mm-hmm ... writing a post, recording something, speaking at non-Drupal events, translating content, hosting a podcast, all sorts of, all sorts of things, right? Um, I'm wondering w- obviously the goal here is f- to reach people who might not traditionally think of themselves as contributors and say like, "Hey, we have all of these opportunities for you," um, you know, both in, within the community and external.

But I'm wondering, like, what is the DA doing to kind of promote that more than they h- maybe have in the past, or get that word out about those non-code contributions?

[01:00:59] Tiffany: Well, I think that you're gonna see that in some of the changes, um, with the contribution system itself. Um, you know, we've always awarded credits for speaking and writing.

You know, th- that kind of stuff I think has always been part of it. But by pulling advocacy out into its own pillar, you're gonna see this make its way through Drupal certification. And as the Drupal certified program evolves to recognize more parts of our ecosystem, um, in a lens that is appropriate to the ways in which they engage in our ecosystem.

And so by that I mean, like, the current DCP program is very much structured around what an agency, um, what they might already be doing. So we're looking for the win-win. And then-

[01:01:39] John: And just to, just to add a note there for our listeners, DCP stands for Drupal Certified Partner, just in case

[01:01:44] Tiffany: you're wondering.

C- yes. Today it does, and it gives people, I think, the wrong impression that we're a trade association for smaller agencies. Mm-hmm. I actually had a, a really large agency, um, provide feedback in that way, and I was like, "Actually, no, we're here. We provide the infrastructure that, that all of your sites are using, and it's costing us this much per year.

I'd love for you to be able to offset that in some way, shape, or form. Let's have that conversation," right? So I think being able to expand it out into the Drupal certified program where we recognize our hosting platforms, we recognize our third-party integrations- Mm-hmm ... we recognize our GSIs, we recognize our agency implementers, we recognize our individual contributors in ways that are appropriate to the slices and the ways that they are already making.

They're already patrons. Um, and they may already be do- doing advocacy. And then setting a bar for what that looks like, uh- Mm ... to, to be able to support Drupal more fully and more distributedly, um, I think is gonna be a big part of it. So again, I want to see on all the, the hosting partners, um, you know, if we're a Drupal certified host, I wanna see, um, I wanna see testimonials on G2 or Trusted Pilot about Drupal because that's actually how we influence our AO or GEO.

Um, and those are things that they want, too. So if I set the criteria for what Drupal certified looks like and in the advocacy bucket it has things that are in their interests and in our interests, then I think we're gonna be much more successful. So I, I started off earlier and I didn't finish my thought, which is, like, one, I'm good at saying no.

The other thing I'm good at doing is asking for things. And so just going to people and say, "Hey, I'd like this. Can you do it?" Like, um, eh, I'm gonna be asking are those who participate, those who, who receive value from the Drupal community and the Drupal project, I'm gonna be asking them, like, "Hey, you're using hundreds of thousands of dollars of services.

How about we have a conversation about how we, uh, you know, reduce that, that pull, and you offset it with some costs?"

[01:03:50] John: And so reframing it this way also allows us to kind of bring in outside agencies that might not necessarily, um, be in the Dru- Drupal ecosystem, right? To be able to- Yeah ... to have them be an advocacy partner, right?

And, and just be kind of like resharing and, and, and supporting kind of our, our narrative.

[01:04:13] Tiffany: We want people-

[01:04:14] John: Huh ...

[01:04:14] Tiffany: to bring what they can bring.

[01:04:16] John: Yeah.

[01:04:16] Tiffany: Right? Make a lot of it. And I wanted, i- i- a lot of it's been about finding those, those shared opportunities and the mutual alignment. So I think it's just a different perspective.

Again, we have so much. We have we have such a big footprint in the world, and so much value is created, um, by Drupal. Um, let's make sure that it's not resting on the backs of 126 current DCPs. Let's make sure that the makers and the maintainers are able to, um, afford food. And then by that, I also include our core release managers, and our core maintainers, and the security team.

Like, I... it's important that we reimagine the economics of Drupal for the next 25 years, and that, that is very top of mind for me.

[01:05:00] Tim: Yeah. So, uh, over the next year, uh, what would you love to see to happen, um, that would make you start to say, "All right, the Drupal advocacy program is working"? I know it's like, when you start a big thing like this, it could be hard.

Like, what, what metrics would you look for?

[01:05:16] Tiffany: I'm gonna be looking for Drupal in non-Drupal publications. I am very, very grateful, um, to the Drop Times. I, I love it. I love talking Drupal. I love all these podcasts. I would love to see, however, non-Drupal specific channels, including content that is, you know, based in Drupal, but not about a Drupal topic.

So for me, that's what success looks like, you know, where we have talks at JavaScript conferences, AI conferences that are about, um, that are backed by Drupal, but are fundamentally appropriate to anyone at that conference. Then I think we're gonna be, um... we'll, we'll know that this has actually been succeeding, where this kind of, this advocacy feels like a, a normal and expected part of helping Drupal be successful

[01:06:06] Nic: Well, Tiffany, thank you for joining us.

It's always a pleasure to have you on.

[01:06:10] Tiffany: Thank you. I love being here.

[01:06:11] Nic: And don't forget that you can reach out to us on the Drupal Slack in the Talking Drupal channel, or you can email us with [email protected]. To promote your Drupal event, sponsor an episode, or become a guest, you can visit talkingdrupal.com and click the buttons in the sidebar.

Like to thank the patrons for supporting Talking Drupal. Your support has kept us talking for 575 episodes. All right, Tiffany, if our listeners wanted to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

[01:06:38] Tiffany: Well, I encourage you go to drupal.org/advocacy to see how you can get involved in that, um, or join the Drupal Slack.

You can always Slack me on that Drupal Slack at Farriss, F-A-R-R-I-S-S. Um, and just, just reach out. Let's have a conversation.

[01:06:54] Nic: And Tim, it's been a pleasure having you on for the last four weeks. If our listeners wanted to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

[01:07:00] Tim: I know I'm sad to go, but this has been awesome.

Um, if anybody wants to reach out to me, um, I am on Drupal Slack, um, at Tea-Sharp, so T-E-A dash sharp, or you can just reach out on LinkedIn, uh, just Tim Sharp. I work at Appalachian State University, and yeah.

[01:07:20] Nic: Awesome. And John, how about you?

[01:07:22] John: Uh, you can reach out, uh, to me on the socials or drupal.org@johnpicozzi.

Uh, you can find me personally at picozzi.com, or you can find out about EPAM at epam.com.

[01:07:36] Nic: And you can find me pretty much everywhere at nicxvan, N-I-C-X-V-A-N. And

[01:07:42] Tim: if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking.

[01:07:46] Nic: Awesome.

[01:07:47] John: Have a good one, everyone.