Talking Drupal #555 - AI Learners Club

[00:00:00] Nic: This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design and development from a group of people with one thing in common: we love Drupal. This is episode 555, AI Learners Club. This episode of Talking Drupal is spon-

[00:00:22] John: No, it's

[00:00:22] Nic: not On today's show, we're talking about AI, how to stay up to date with it, and if it will really take our jobs, with our guests Angie Byron and Amber Matz.

We'll also cover AI best practices for Drupal as our module of the week. Welcome to Talking Drupal. Our guests here, Angie and Amber. Amber Matz is a developer advocate at Tugboat, where she helps customers and Drupal org users add fast, reviewer-friendly preview environments to their code change approval pipelines.

She's the co-host of the Drupal AI Learners Club, a community space for Drupal developers who want to learn about AI without going it alone, and she's the president of the Rose City Accordion Club, where she sits at the leading edge of phishing attempts and scams. Angie Byron, better known as Webchick, is a longtime Drupal contributor and community organizer, as well as a former Drupal core committer, product manager, and DA board member.

After several years in the data and developer tool space, she has recently returned to the Drupal community with a focus on bridging the gap between open source contributors and AI coding tools. By day, she manages a DevRel team at Temporal. By night and on weekends, she founded and co-organizes the Drupal AI Learners Club and the AI Best Practices for Drupal project, aiming to help both veteran Drupal developers and AI native newcomers work effectively using Drupal and AI together.

Welcome back to the show, and thank you for joining us.

[00:01:44] Angie: Thank you so much.

[00:01:47] Nic: I'm Nic Laflin, founder at nLightened Development, and today my co-hosts are joining us for the next four weeks as guest host Scott Falconer. Scott helps humans and machines think to- oh, sorry. Scott Falconer, senior director of Drupal Applied AI and Agent Success at Acquia.

He helps humans and machines think together. He leads Applied AI at Acquia, serves on the Drupal AI Initiative leadership team, and authored Managing AI. Drawing on a background in cognitive science and enterprise-scale architecture, Scott focuses on the messy, practical mechanics of integrating AI directly into everyday workflows.

Thank you for joining us.

[00:02:24] Scott: Glad to be here, and we can shorten my intro for the next four. I'll, I'll, I'll get a shorter title for the next one.

[00:02:29] John: Sure. No, we come to, uh, we come to expect that from, from our Acquians to have really long, long titles. Just, just wait until we get to the- I'll use the whole

[00:02:36] Scott: hour on my title next time.

[00:02:38] John: Wait until we get to the module of the week.

[00:02:41] Nic: Let's just, uh, abbreviate everything. Senior DDAASA.

[00:02:46] John: Senior DDA.

[00:02:49] Nic: All right. Also joining us as usual, John Picozzi, solution architect at EPAM.

[00:02:54] John: Howdy.

[00:02:56] Nic: Okay, I have my screen in a different position, so give me one second. Here we go. And now to talk about our module of the week, let's turn it over to Martin Anderson-Clutz, a pr- product marketing manager for Drupal at Acquia and a maintainer of a number of Drupal modules of his own.

Martin, what do you have for us this week?

[00:03:14] Martin: Thanks, Nic. Do you want to start using AI tools for Drupal development in the most efficient way possible? There's a Composer plugin for that. It's called AI Best Practices for Drupal, and it was created in March of twenty twenty-six by Angie Byron, AKA webchick, one of today's guests, a longtime Drupalist, one-time Acquia-n, and a fellow Canadian.

It has only a dev version available, which, uh, doesn't seem directly opinionated about which version of Drupal you're using, though it does have minimum versions of PHP and Symfony libraries that suggest Drupal ten is functionally your minimum. It is officially, um, seeking co-maintainers. It has test coverage, and for documentation, there is an in-depth README, or you can ask an AI model like I did for today's segment.

Uh, it has fifty-four open, uh, work items in GitLab, so lots of active discussion already. And AI Best Practices for Drupal aims to be the opinionated starting experience for AI-assisted Drupal development. You can think of it as a single Composer install that makes any AI coding agent speak Drupal, following community standards, preferring contrib over custom code, and avoiding framework-native mistakes.

It replaces scattered tool-specific, uh, claude.md files and cursor rules that some Drupal developers currently maintain individually with one canonical community-governed package that works across Claude Code, Cursor, Copilot, and more. With contributions by a variety of Drupal luminaries, including Marcus Johansson, Kristof, uh, Breidt, and Scott Falconer.

It's the Drupal equivalent of Laravel Boost, so you can stop explaining Drupal to your AI, um, every session and just get going writing code. Now, after installer update, it will create an agents.md file from a provided template if there isn't one already, or it will update a specifically marked AI best practices section of an existing file.

You will also have a directory of provided skills and guidance for creating new Drupal agent skills. Also included is a set of evals meant to automatically identify when AI models go off course and provide feedback. Now, AI Best Practices for Drupal is meant to provide guidance that will be particularly useful for AI agents, so it's ideal for Drupal developers getting started with AI tools or AI developers who want to get started with Drupal.

So let's talk about AI Best Practices for Drupal

[00:05:44] Angie: Sure ...

[00:05:44] John: it's ver- very, very, uh, very exciting. It makes me wanna, makes me wanna try it out. Um, I'm curious. Uh, I mean, I'm, uh, two of the people that have contributed to it are right here, so I'm assuming that you guys are using it. I'm wondering if anybody else is using it

[00:06:03] Angie: I would say... So here, here's the real talk on this project.

So I came to DrupalCon after a long time away, like five years or something like that, and what I observed is, like, 38 different people were creating 437 different ways to make LLMs suck less at Drupal. And they were kind of working independently and each kind of building their own ecosystem off of their thing.

And what I observed is that the, you know, there, there's, there are, there are some, there's a range of opinions, shall we say, about AI in the Drupal community. But there's a healthy amount of people who are, like, say, AI curious, and they are struggling to get started. So why I started this project, and I, like, I was like, "I'm not leaving the contribution sprint room until this, this URL exists, and then we'll figure it out after."

Um, but anyway, was, was because I wanted a central place for all of the people trying to independently solve make AI suck less at Drupal and get people started with AI in Drupal easier, more easily, one spot for that so that we could all collaborate. And so nowadays what the project does is, is quite cool.

There's some skills in there, which is basically, like, marked down to explain all the Drupalisms that we have and, and things like that. So there's markdown files in there that explain, um, how to contribute to Drupal.org, how to contribute to GitLab, how, um, our caching and field entities and all of that kind of stuff work.

Because in the pre-show we were talking about the fact that, you know, AIs are trained on the internet, and there's a lot of PHP code on the internet, and none of it uses, right, this YAML file to wire up a subscriber to do it. You know what I mean? And you have to train it if you want it to do something differently than what it knows.

And so agent skills are a way of doing that. So it's a skills library with a few different things in it. Needs to have more things in it, but we're working on it. And then the second thing that it is, is, uh, Ronald de Bruin, I don't know how you pronounce his name. I don't think I've ever met him in person.

But he built the Surge project which handles that, uh, agents.md merge the files down thing so that you can have sort of your own project specific guidance. You can have guidance for your old, like, you know, Drupal as a whole, and you can have guidance for, like, your specific client. You know, like that kind of thing.

And so he wrote all of that stuff in a project called Surge, and early days he was like, "I love this vision. I'm just gonna merge my stuff into your..." Like, right on. And so what we've been doing is sort of collecting lovely people like Scott who have been working in this space and then trying to collate their efforts into one space.

So would I use this today? Maybe. I have used it. It's decent. But I would say, like, it's still pretty early days and mainly it's being used as a contributing, like a, like a conflagration point to, like, get all the people together talking The other thing in there that's really cool is an eval framework by, uh, George Gustanis.

His name is Zorz on Slack. Again, I don't think I've ever met George, but he created an eval framework, and why that's cool is These skill files are just marked down, and so they can change, right? And, and the way you reword something may or may not be helpful. And an eval framework allows us to see, okay, this was the baseline, it was, like, say 80% coverage, and now that we've added this skill file, now it's 100%, or, or oh, we just changed it, we did it be- it's basically like automated tests for ev- or for, uh- Hmm

for AI. And so anyway, so what we're trying to do is all work together and create one central place for, like, sort of like a Drupal CMS of getting started with AI, where it's opinionated. There's one path, just do it. And then, um, where that hooks into is all these great projects that exist in the contrib ecosystem- Mm-hmm

or, or on GitHub or, like, whatever, wherever people are. But it's a way of surfacing those so that they're discoverable and they're all kind of packaged together. Because otherwise it's, like, you versus, like, 400 things on skills.sh and trying to figure it out, and it's just very overwhelming, so. So- That's the

[00:09:58] John: origin

[00:09:59] Angie: and, and what it does.

[00:10:01] John: That sounds amazing. Um, now talk to me like I'm a fifth grader. Um-

[00:10:08] Angie: Sure. I'm so sorry. Yep ...

[00:10:10] John: so, z- no, no, that's okay. I'm just wondering, like, okay, so if I have, like, say, Claude on my, my computer, right, on my laptop, and then I'm, like, using D Dev, right, as my local Drupal setup, um, I install this Composer plugin in my project, does it just kind of, like, work out of the box and do all the things, and then Claude's just gonna know, like, "Oh, oh, all right, here are all the skills and, and, and, you know, that I need to be aware of, all the information, like Drupal, Drupal, Drupal, great, great, great," and it's just gonna work?

Like, is it that easy?

[00:10:44] Angie: In theory-

[00:10:45] John: Yes. Okay ...

[00:10:46] Angie: yes. That's fine. Right, yeah. I, I, I, I think, I think, John, you should test that and m- and hold me to account. But yes, in theory, that's what it'll do. So you'll have your Drupal site set up already, whether it's an existing site or one you just installed through D Dev.

You run the Composer require blah, blah. I don't remember what the command is. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. It pulls it in, and then as part of the bootstrap process... I'm hand-waving here. I don't know what Composer does anymore. That- that's fine ... but it basically moves all the files around. And what Claude specifically will do, and each kind of framework like that is a little bit different, what Claude will do is look for a claude.md file, right?

Right 'Cause that's what it uses. And there's a bunch of special snowflake ones with their own. But they all point over to an agents.md file, and that's where the logic is. Got it. And the nice thing about MD is that's a standard, right? Most tools recognize it, it's just Claude is special and doesn't, and so we have a little bit of, like, helper for that kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so it should read all of that stuff that's in there. Mm-hmm. And then from then on, when you try to, say, scaffold me out a module with whatever functionality, and it's about to write an automated test, it'll be like, "Hold on a minute. I have a skill about that," and it will go consult the skill and be like, "Ah- I wanna extend from kernel test base, not unit test base, da da.

I violated your five-year-old rule. You know what I mean? No, no, no.

[00:12:02] John: But that- I, I was keeping up. I

[00:12:03] Angie: was ... framing clause that, hey, you have other things available to you, and it also explains the context in which that would be valuable to it, right? Um, and then it's, and then it, it, it, it's still a, it's still an LLM.

It's still non-deterministic, so it's still making decisions on the fly. You can't, like, force it to use it. But by... You, you basically set it up for success so that it kinda understands, ah, okay, I'm working on this kinda thing, and I remember there was a skill about that, so I'm gonna go consult the skill.

Ah, okay, it looks like I should do this instead of this. And yeah. Mm. Yeah, so- In theory, it writes better code.

[00:12:35] Nic: I, I, I think one of the more interesting parts about it is that... is the consolidation of decisions, right? E- even if you're... If people have different ideas here, it's a good starting place to figure out how to start, right?

But-

[00:12:49] Angie: Yeah ...

[00:12:49] Nic: I will say one of the blessings or curses, it, it's a double-edged sword, of AI is that it's opened up the ability to kind of make that niche module that you need. And like you said, there, there were 15, 20 different people making their own, "Here's my recipe, custom sauce for AI." I'm seeing the same thing with, like, reporting dashboards.

There- Mm ... you know, there used to be one or two modules that did that. Now there's 25, 30. And I... And it's open source. I mean, that's one of the benefits is you can kind of choose the one that you want, but you also want, like, ecosystem level decisions, like Webform. Webform- Yeah ... you know, that was, you know, was a quick sketch, started it, and then Jacob Rockwoods took it over, uh, you know, took, took up the torch.

And now Liam is kind of pushing that forward. Like, but having just that one single community-wide ecosystem level module that everybody can integrate with is great. And I think AI, th- we had the AI initiative. The AI module kind of has that for the, uh, the functional side of it. Mm. But this is more about the how do you make decisions about it side of it kind of, I think, and, and getting it running on your machine.

Um, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's a great, a great way to pull that information together.

[00:14:07] Scott: It's also been

[00:14:08] Angie: fun- Yeah. That's why I- ... because, like... Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

[00:14:10] Scott: Oh, no, I was gonna say, I mean, that's why we're so excited to see you do this because both of what you said, like the proliferation, and it just gets back to the, the old, if you wanna go, you know, far, go with others.

You wanna go fast, go by yourself. And, and I think that is probably the bigger risk with open source communities with AI right now. Like, if you don't have that initial burden, you can just do it yourself or you don't have to rely on people, or it's easier to think you don't have to rely on people. We see pretty quickly when you start to do it yourself that you need to, so I was really excited to see that because it, it's a huge problem of everyone just making their own things.

And- Mm ... as Drupal, we've, we've done, what, now for years, right? Make modules for everything, right? And eventually- Yeah ... reconsolidate

[00:14:53] Angie: Yeah. But like the Drupal community benefited immensely from there being only one Views module, not-

[00:14:58] Scott: Yep ...

[00:14:59] Angie: seven of them. And so this felt to me architecturally like that kind of a problem, where this stuff moves too fast, it's too complex, right?

And, and therefore the best brains all thinking in one, you know, in one place. Like, you know, um, and collaborating with one another on the vision. Like that, that to me seemed like the, the medicine for this particular problem, you know, versus, uh... And, and like Webform is similar. These kind of ecosystem modules, Token, um, like that kind of stuff.

I'm sorry, I'm old and so like some of these things- Mm ... may be in core now. I don't know. But, uh- Yeah ... um, but you know what I mean. It's like, but that's kind of the point, right? Like, you, you innovate out on the fringes, right? And then when something is proven and is really useful to people, you pull it into core, or we did back in the day anyway, because now it's available to everybody as an opinionated thing.

And you can still use, you know, Scott's fancy Ultra Views module if you want, but that's an option to you. But the 80% or 95% of people get the Views module, and all the tutorials, uh, that no one reads anymore apparently- Mm ... work and all that kind of stuff, so

[00:16:01] Scott: yeah. Yeah. And I think this is where- A lot of education in why to use these things, 'cause again, it's really, it's easy to, to just not know the things you don't know.

I remember when Views first came out, I was just, "Why would I use that? I can just copy and paste the SQL." I didn't know what it did- Right ... but it worked and it's fine, and it was easier than learning this other thing. But then you start to realize, oh, there are these other reasons that there's this complexity.

Um, so I think that's one thing I would... Think back to when you were starting with Drupal and you didn't know. Like, a lot of people are in that with the AI world right now, and it's just like- Mm-hmm ... you don't even know what questions to ask.

[00:16:34] John: The, the, the- But- Um, man, it's easier to code my own thing drives me nuts, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna strategically avoid my soapbox on that.

And, uh- ... I think Martin, Martin might have been asking, going to ask a question, so I'm gonna go for it.

[00:16:49] Martin: Oh, no. I was, uh, I was just gonna comment that I think the other sort of, you know, important benefit that a project like this can provide for the community is also, you know, for the people out there that, you know, we've all heard somebody who is like, "Oh yeah, I tried Claude Code, like 18 months ago and it gave me garbage, so AI tools suck."

Mm-hmm. And it's like, if we can set people up for success so that their first experience actually gives them something that, you know, is coded to community standards and, you know, actually does the thing and maybe has, you know, like the, the evals, the built-in loops that tell it if the thing that it's doing is, has, you know, problems, um, then that's, you know, gives them a better experience and, and sets them up for a more enthusiastic adoption of those tools.

[00:17:32] Scott: That's one question for me. So like when you see people coming into the Learners Club, like what level are they at? 'Cause it's hard when you say, "I use AI." It's, "I went to Gemini and made an image," versus like, "I'm running 75 instances of Claude in my custom harness." Right? So what are you seeing there?

[00:17:49] Angie: I have data about that actually.

Um, so I make every... After every session... Do I have a nice pie chart of it? I might not. I might have to... Give me a minute to make Claude tell me how to make a nice pie chart of it. But, um, uh, but yeah, after every session that we do, we, uh, put out a survey and I make the survey results public. I don't know how to share a link in here But, um,

[00:18:12] Nic: like- We'll, we'll put the

[00:18:13] Angie: information- But I'll, I'll add it to the- We'll put it in the show

[00:18:14] Nic: notes

[00:18:15] Angie: yeah, I'll add it to the show notes. Um, but yeah. So after every, uh, thing we, we collect, like, uh, you know, feedback from members, and one of the questions is, where are you on your AI journey? Like, are you... tried it a bit? Are you like, "I haven't used it at all," or using it occasionally, or using it regular? Are you like Scott Falconer, and I have agents orchestrating other agents to use AI for me, or whatever, that kind of thing.

And I would say, like, most people are in the using regularly daily, you know, thing. But I think, um, are... But I probably need to change that question to get a little bit more, what does that mean, though? Does that mean, like, you're copying and pasting from ChatGPT every day? Does that mean you are using an A- like, a command line tool, like, "Do this," and then it churns for you as an agent?

Like, you know, what does that actually mean? So I think I'll, I'll tighten up that question a little bit, 'cause I think it would be helpful. Anecdotally, though, um, I will say I went to... Again, I was at DrupalCon. I went to the AI initiative panel. And so, like, picture it. There's all of the people on the universe, then there's the number of people who know what Drupal is.

Then there's the number of people who went to an event called DrupalCon. Then there's the number of people that chose to attend something called the Drupal AI Initiative Panel, okay? And there was a question asked at one point by one of the panelists that's like, "How many of you in here are using AI in Drupal?"

And it was, like, nobody, right? Um- Wait, what? Yeah. It was like... And then it was, like, three people. And it was like, "How many people are, like, curious to learn more about this?" And then it was, like, everybody else. And it's like, okay. So that was a bit of a genesis of the Drupal AI learning. I was like, we need to help people- So-

get on board, and we need to start- So- ... talking about this stuff. So, yeah.

[00:19:57] Nic: B- before, before we go too far down that, let's, uh, let's close out the, uh, module link segment here. Um, so, uh, Martin, as always, you found a, you found a, a... Well, is this the first Composer plugin for Module of the Week? Um-

[00:20:13] Martin: I think we've had something else Composer related, but I think this is the first Composer plugin for sure.

[00:20:18] Nic: Yeah. So, uh, you found one so tightly coupled to the topic today that it almost feels like the same topic. So, uh, if folks wanted to get in touch or connect or suggest a module leak, how could they best do that?

[00:20:31] Martin: We are always happy to talk about candidates for Composer Plugin of the Week in the Talking Drupal channel of Drupal Slack, or folks can reach out to me directly as mandclu on all of the Drupal and social platforms.

[00:20:42] Angie: We also have a good question from Joe D. Um, I don't know how to type in the chat in this tool, or maybe I can, but the question-

[00:20:49] John: You, you do- you don't. You just, just read it and go.

[00:20:52] Angie: Okay. Yeah. So the question is- Answer the question ... how does, how does this Composer plugin help me get better with Drupal? Does it help Claude to teach me how Drupal actually works?

And that's a great question, and the answer is, uh, it might. Um, uh, because by making Claude or whatever tool you're using smarter about Drupal, then when you ask it questions, as you might, like, "Hey, I'm confu- like, how does, right, a request actually turn into a webpage in Drupal? I don't really get it," right?

And if you asked, like, stock Claude... Claude's a bad example 'cause Claude's more like the frontier model, so it's very fancy and it knows a lot of things. But a lot of people in Dru- the Drupal community don't wanna use Claude and they don't wanna use OpenAI 'cause they have, like, moral problems with those companies.

So let's say you're using an open model, right, that is not as smart as Claude, and it will biff the answer really badly, uh, by default. And so what AI best practices will do is help the agent to understand a little bit more about Drupal so that when it tries to do fancy auto-complete to answer your question, it is based in, uh, kind of like domain knowledge of Drupal instead of whatever it was trained on out there.

So a, a good way to liken it to, for Drupal people is if you've been using AI tools without this skills stuff that's domain knowledge for Drupal, you're basically, like, installing Drupal with, like, you know, minimal profile and then, like, you know, sort of forming your judgments on that and being like, "Well, this thing sucks and it's super ugly.

I'm never using this again," right? You know, whereas what we want people to do is use, like, Drupal CMS 'cause it's got all the shiny bells and whistles and all that kind of stuff. So AI best practices essentially equips the AI with shiny bells and whistles for Drupal so that by default, everything you ask it, whether it's to automate your jobs, whether it's information, whe- whatever it is, it'll be smarter and more grounded in, in Drupal knowledge when it does it.

Does that make sense?

[00:22:45] Nic: Awesome.

[00:22:45] Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I would add to this, you know, this is just a, a theory for using AI in general, that AI is pretty much the first tool that you can ask it how to use it. So extend this beyond just Drupal, like, ask it that question. Now, what the AI Best Practice module's doing is just adding context about what you're doing and what you're site.

And that is pretty much all you can control with, uh, a model. The model's trained outside, right? All you can do is give it the right information at the right time, and that's what's really important. This is what I would also encourage people, the AI initiative is working a lot on context control center for this specific problem.

Because done right, you may be able to ask it, "I published this piece of content, why is it not showing up on the front page?" Well, the answer is specific to your site, right? Because your role doesn't have the ability to publish, and your front page is a view, and it only shows the three most recent ones, and this article has a date of four weeks ago.

So the context is really important, but always just ask the AI and it'll usually guide you. Uh, may not guide you in the right direction, but it'll guide you.

[00:23:48] Amber: Well, I'm really... I think that's a really excellent question and I'm... We've tossed out a lot of like, "Hopefully this will work for you," but I, I...

Hopefully what has happened is the people who have contributed to the AI Best Practices knew the questions to ask and knew what they knew about. They were Drupal experts and they provided the right context. A beginner who doesn't know what they don't know, uh, hopefully this, this, uh, Composer plugin will help them ask ve- uh, naive questions, questions of a newcomer, and it will help guide them.

That, I think, is an open question. I'm, I'm really curious about that. I'd love to have feedback from newcomers to Drupal on how the AI Best Practices module is helping them in their learning journey.

[00:24:37] John: Like, I feel like- Like if I, if I got it and I installed it and started using it, I'd probably go in and read those skills just to see, like, what w-

[00:24:46] Angie: Yeah

[00:24:46] John: what's happening in there, right? And like I feel like through doing that, I would understand a little bit better, like, what, you know, Jodie is asking here about, like, how Claude's kind of working with Drupal and, and vice versa. Um,

[00:25:00] Angie: so- Yeah. But that's, that's exactly the point of, of doing it in these skill or markdown files, right?

Yeah. Is they'll help humans as well as LLM agents because, um, when we write... Well, a- and how we s- how, how we bootstrapped it was kind of fun. It's like we were at DrupalCon at the sprint rooms, so I just ran around with a microphone and like, you know, talked to a bunch of people. So I talked to Fen Proxima and said, "H- talk to me about how testing works."

He went, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I did like, you know, "Okay, now skillify this," basically, you know? But now that domain knowledge from this one very specific contributor who has worked in this field for 10 years is captured in text, which means you, if you hate AI, you can just like browse the Git repo and like read it and understand, "Oh, I didn't know that about tests," or whatever, you know, domain knowledge.

Um, yeah. And so it, it's, it's, it's like that kind of a thing.

[00:25:51] Scott: This topic too leads to something that I think we'll talk about later in the episode, though, the whole, like, what's this mean for all our careers and jobs? This part, AI will never tell you what is the right question to ask, right? Like, it will give you answers when you ask the right questions.

So this is a very important part to like, "Will Claude teach me how Drupal actually works?" Yes, it will as a beginner, but there's still a exceptional potential for someone who is an expert in Drupal or understands reality. Like what you mentioned earlier, Nic, about dashboard proliferation, right? Like, what is the right dashboard?

Do you actually even need a dashboard for this? Those are the kind of questions that the expertise of the people in Drupal community is really important for. Right.

[00:26:34] Nic: Yeah. All right. This has been, I think, our longest module of the week, and it's not even a module. But, uh- ... as always, thank you Martin for bringing us such a, a great, uh, topic of discussion, and we'll see you next week.

[00:26:51] Martin: All right. See you then.

[00:26:52] Nic: Thanks, Martin. See you next week All right. Let's jump into our primary topic this week, which is the AI Learners Club, which I think is related to the, uh, the AI best practices. But what is the AI Learners Club?

[00:27:10] Angie: Okay. So I am absolutely gonna do this because I said I would do it at the beginning.

I'm not gonna share my screen 'cause it's an audio-only podcast. But so I have been working a lot with Claude on the AI Learners, uh, Club, and I'm... So I'm not going to ask Claude, I'm going to ask Gemini that question, which is, "What is Drupal AI Learners Club?" And I will, uh, repeat back what it says, and let's see what it, what it...

Let's see how close or far away it gets. Okay. Oh, my God. That's so long. Hold on. Um, give it to me-

[00:27:39] John: The word, the word concise is really good with the, uh, with the, with the bots.

[00:27:43] Angie: Yeah, yeah. Uh, okay. Here we go. "The Drupal AI Learners Club is a casual, community-driven space for developers to experiment with AI tools.

Launched by Angie Byron in April 26, it features weekly virtual show-and-tell sessions where members share real-world workflows. There are no formal presentations or sales pitches." Sorry. The sales pitches is true. The formal presentations, we've kind of come away from that. But, uh, "just practical demos of AI models, code assistance, and Drupal modules.

It's a safe environment to learn, ask questions, and share both successes and failures. You can join the conversation in AI Learner, like, #ailearners channel on the official Drupal Slack." And then would you like a direct link to their upcoming schedule or did you want a list of AI tools they frequently-

[00:28:25] Nic: Is this

[00:28:25] Angie: is the concise version?

There you go. That's a really reasonable description of what we're doing, so that's great.

[00:28:28] Nic: But this is the concise version?

[00:28:31] Angie: That was the concise version. Dude, the first version was like, I couldn't even-

[00:28:35] John: I, I find- All right ... I find, uh, I, I take, I take, uh, uh... I find error in that description because it didn't mention Amber once.

[00:28:43] Angie: I know. So we gotta work- So- ... on our AEO, our agent engine optimization, so that Amber starts showing up more.

[00:28:51] Nic: So, so Amber, what, what would you add to the, that description? What, what is the AI Learners Club?

[00:28:56] Amber: I would add that the AI Learners Club is a place for the Drupal community to Learn and share about what they've been working on in the AI space, and to discover that, "Oh, what I'm working on actually ties into what this other person is working on," and, "Oh, maybe we should collaborate in the AI best practices module."

And that's been sort of a funnel for discovering the work that people have been toiling away at individually. I think it provides a safe space for people to talk about the work that they're doing. There's a lot of diverse opinions and polarization about AI, and I think there's some shame too and/or embarrassment.

Like, "Yeah, you know what? Actually, I'm using AI a lot." And they don't-- This learners club helps people talk about, "Yeah, this is the work that I've been doing with AI. I'm actually really excited about it, and I've gotten it to do some really amazing things, and wow, I have a place to share about it now. I don't need to be like some VIP initiative lead, you know, anointed from on high or something to, to share about this.

I'm just a community member. I've been doing good work, and I'm here to share about it

[00:30:11] Angie: And that is why AI is never gonna take all of our jobs, because that was way better as a description. So thanks, Amber.

[00:30:17] Amber: Oh, you're welcome.

[00:30:18] John: There, there you go. All right. So, um, Angie, I think you talked about, a little bit about this in, um, the module of the week segment, but, um, how did the Learners Club get started?

[00:30:32] Angie: Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to mix the streams there. Oh. Oh,

[00:30:35] Nic: that's okay.

[00:30:36] Angie: Yeah. So, uh, so yeah. So I, I'd attended DrupalCon after some time away. Um, for that, by the way, you can t- thank Tiffany Ferris because she was like, "You know, it's Drupal's 25th anniversary, and it's in Chicago, so it's, like, close enough that your mom could drive out."

I'm like, "Ugh, fine." And so I'm just kidding. It was actually like, "That's actually a really good idea." And so, like, I palled around all, all week with my mom and introduced her to all my friends and got a lot of hugs. And that's what I thought I was walking into, right? I was like, "Yay, DrupalCon. That's cool."

[00:31:05] Amber: I loved meeting your mom, by the way.

What's up? Your mom is so... I loved meeting your mom.

[00:31:10] Angie: She's so sweet. She's the best. Like, if you ever went to, like, any of the Midwest Drupa- basically if I was within, like, an eight-hour drive of Minnesota, my mom would be there. That would be

[00:31:19] John: What's, what's the over under that your mom's watching this live stream right now?

[00:31:23] Angie: She couldn't figure it out, so she's unfortunately not watching. Ah. All right. I tried very hard to figure the link and stop

[00:31:28] John: me saying- I was gonna, I was gonna say hi to your mom, but, uh-

[00:31:30] Angie: Yeah. Hi, Mom ... she can always listen to the podcast ... well, she'll hear the recording, or watch the recording.

[00:31:33] John: Yeah, she can listen to the podcast.

Yeah. Hi, Angie's mom.

[00:31:36] Angie: Hi, Angie's mom. Um, but yeah, so we, um, da, da, da, da. Yeah, so I'm in the Dries note, right? And Dries has this little triangle, and it's like, oh, there's, like, three points of tension, and there's, like, you know, the, the technology, and I don't remember, but it's like the technology, the business community, and the contributor community.

And I'm like, "Oh, ho, ho." Because guess what? I worked for Dries for, like, 15 years, and I've been the person on the other side of those slides, and I know exactly what's going on. There's some tension, and what he's trying to do is pay homage to the tension that there is and not gloss over it, while also not scaring the crap out of Acquia customers in the audience.

So I'm like, I know exactly what's going on. Now I'm curious, right? So then I start, like, well, let me go to the AI Birds of a Feather session, right? 'Cause that was after that or it was later. And in that we're all, like, going around and raising our hands or whatever, you know, what, what topics you wanna talk about.

And, and I raised one, because this is happening everywhere. Everywhere in the open source world is the open source maintainers, who are already not, not not burnt out and crispy before this, are now just getting pummeled by five coded PRs and, like, you know, everything. And so I, I, I don't know, 'cause I haven't been in Drupal in five years.

So I raised the topic of, like, let's talk about, like- you know, open source maintainer sustainability in the age of AI. Mm-hmm. I don't remember how I pitched the topic, and so everyone voted for that one, and that's what we talked about. And so I, again, been away for a while, but what I remember about the Drupal community is, um, we are often, like, on the forefront of new technology and doing cool things.

Like, we were playing around with RDF and this kind of stuff before it was cool, like that kind of stuff. Open- OpenID, that kind of stuff. And so I kind of had expected there to be, like, you know, a movement around AI. And you talked about the AI, Drupal AI initiative and stuff like that, so kind of expected that.

And then the other thing I expected is that we are a really open, welcoming community, and we, we love contributors and, like, this kind of a thing. And so I was shocked when, like, the first suggestions on this problem were, "Well, we should ban LLM tools, and we should put ratings on-" Whoa ... "contributors to down-vote them."

And I'm like, "What is going on?" Right? And so, you know, and I was like, "Well, or just, just, you know, or we could, you know, teach the LLMs to write less crappy code so that they don't, you know, and teach the humans while we're at it." And they're like, "Oh, yeah, I guess that could work." So anyway, so that's where, you know, I'm just like, "Okay, something's wrong here, um, with what's going on."

And then I became aware that there were issues with 487 comments to, like, ban LLM tools, ban if slop issue comer- summaries and comments, uh, you know, ban the lead of the AI init- It was just like, what in the... You know. So I literally sat up all night reading every single comment because I could have gotten AI to summarize it for me, but that did not seem appropriate.

And so I read every single comment- ... and all of those issues to understand them. Mm-hmm. And basically what I came away with was, okay, so we have some people way on this end of the spectrum that are like, "I hate AI, everything about it. It is evil. The way that... The fundamental way that it's trained is unethical.

It steals from people. It's destroying the environment. I will never use it. I refuse on moral and ethical grounds." You have those people. By the way, I don't disagree with any of their criticisms about AI. The only thing I would say is, if that's your concern- Then go lobby Congress, go volunteer for the EFF.

Like, go somewhere other than yelling in the Drupal issue queue, because the Drupal issue queue cannot do anything about any of those problems, right? We are not gonna... We are not a regulatory body, right? Anything. On this side, you have people like Scott, you have people like the people leading the Drupal AI initiative.

They're super gung-ho on AI, right? And they're hyping it up, and to some extent they need to, right? Because if Drupal wants to catch this wave, this wave that has, like, $4 trillion of investment or whatever, it needs to be relevant to AI. So they're over here hyping it up quite a bit, but a lot of these people are newer to the community.

They don't have the clout that these people do. And the people in the middle, the vast majority of them are like, "I don't know what to do, man. I'm just scared. Like, I see this stuff is coming. I don't have time to learn it. It is coming for my job. I s- built my whole identity around being a really smart Drupal developer who knows all of the nuances, thing, and now Claude can spit out a, a module in five seconds.

Like, what does that mean for me? What does that mean for my business? What does that mean for the community as a whole?" So, like, what I got was an undercurrent of, like, fear, and usually one of the better ways to confront fear is through education. Mm. And I could tell that, like, the people out here, no offense, Scott, you guys are so far ahead of, like, an average Drupal person, at least at that time, right?

That you aren't even speaking the same language. It's kind of like when I was like, "Here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," and Scott and John's like, "Yeah, cool. That was a lot of words." Uh, he said it to me like I'm five, right? Like, that's the problem with people out here is, like, they're, they're not speaking the same language anymore.

And the other thing was there's an undercurrent of fear of like, "I'm behind, and I don't know how to catch up." Yeah. "I don't wanna admit I'm behind because, oh God, then that's gonna, like, uh..." So basically it was like, okay, so we're just gonna create a space where we just talk about what's going on, and there is no...

Like, why, why I think Gemini hinged on, like, no prepared presentations and stuff is 'cause originally the vibe I was kind of going for was like we just show up and we talk, and if you've got something to show and tell, you can show and tell it, and then it's kind of evolved-

[00:37:11] John: Mm ...

[00:37:11] Angie: based on feedback from, from attendees and stuff like that where, yeah.

So

[00:37:15] John: pretty quick evolution, too. Yeah.

[00:37:17] Angie: Yeah, yeah. A little bit. It just... I don't know. I think April 8th was the first session we ever did, and yeah, and yeah, it's, it's got, like, 400 subscribers. I don't know. I, I did a whole bunch of number crunching in advance of this session so I'd have things to talk about in that regard.

But yeah, it's like... And the session recordings, there's like 4.4K views of those s- like, it's a decent, like, amount of momentum behind it. Um,

[00:37:37] John: so. Yeah. I mean, I think the interesting piece here Um, is that you're, you're kind of focused in the middle of, the middle of that spectrum, right? You're not in the, um, AI is evil, like I'm gonna put my head in the sand and, and not ever use AI and ignore it space, right?

But you're not in the like, "Hey, I can do everything. Let's use AI for everything, and, you know, praise our AI overlords." Um, you know, like I think being in the middle of that, of that space is important in a, in, in kind of developing that environment that you're, you're looking to develop, right? Is, uh... Go ahead, Nic.

[00:38:18] Nic: Yeah. I ju- I just wanna chime in though, 'cause I also was invo- reading those issues and, and I, I do wanna say that I think as a community, the issue queue is the place to have that discussion, right? Whether or not- Ugh ... as a community. No, abso- absolutely it is.

[00:38:32] John: Oh, hold on a second. Whether- Hold on. 'Cause I honestly, like- If it were focused on Drupal and responsible use of AI or Drupal's implementation of AI, sure, fine, good, great.

If it's AI is evil and it is a drain on the environment, and I wanna put my head in the sand and not, not pay attention to it, then that is a disservice to everybody that uses

[00:39:03] Nic: Drupal. No. So, so- Right? ... it's, that's not what the issue was. And-

[00:39:07] John: Okay ...

[00:39:08] Nic: like I said, whether, whether, whatever decision is made, that decision is a community decision, right?

And the q- the question was, should the core project accept LLM-driven contributions?

[00:39:23] Martin: Right.

[00:39:24] Nic: The decision was that there isn't going to be a ban on that, right? Um, there was a separate issue created to ban, kind of, not ban 'cause you can't ban them, but make it a bannable, uh, offense, I guess you would say, if people repeatedly spam.

Like, to basically classify just using LLMs to spam the issue queue as spam, right? Which, which might sound tautological, but again, that issue also hasn't been closed either.

[00:39:54] Angie: But I'm gonna- But Nic, I'm gonna push back on you a little bit there, because if the tone of the conversation were exactly what you were saying, like, "Huh, LLMs now spit out code faster than any human can read it.

Let's discuss it as reasoned adults and discuss like the pros and cons and how we might..." That was not the tenor of the conversations. I had multiple people coming to me in tears practically because they're feeling bullied, right? Because it's like, "I'm just trying to help Drupal, and like, people are calling me a fascist," right?

It's like, you know, I had to like, talk multiple people down from like, "I'm never contributing to core. Are you kidding me? Like, look at that. This is what happens when you contribute to core." So, like, y'all have to watch that, okay? When I left, there was a Drupal code of conduct- Okay. Don't, don't

[00:40:38] Nic: put you, don't put you

[00:40:39] Angie: right? And, and I'm like, why was I the person who needed to jump in and tell the person trying to ban the LLM, or sorry, the AI initiative lead that you need to stop? Like, why would it have to be me, an interloper in this community who was just there trying to have a fun time with their mom, right? Like, that's weird to

me.

Yeah. Yeah.

The community should not allow that toxic tenor to reach these conversations, because if you keep it about the facts, that's fine. It's a, is it a completely rational conversation to have in the Drupal issue queue? But it was not. And, and- Pulling in like-

[00:41:11] John: Yeah And I think, I think the way, the way that Nic frames it, like yes, it makes sense, right?

To be like, "Hey, you know, we shouldn't just allow AI slop to get into core. People should review it and be- use it responsibly," right? Um, and I tend to agree with you, Angie, on the like, hey, listen, like, we don't have to call people fascists.

[00:41:31] Nic: Yeah. The to- We don't have to- Yeah. The to- well, the to- the tone, like I said, the tone- The, the tone and the intent I think are separate.

Like, maybe, maybe if there was ... Yeah. Anyway, we can set that aside- But the tone

[00:41:44] Angie: has down feedback- Well, but the- ... I guess I'm saying, right?

[00:41:46] Scott: Yeah. It does, yeah. But- Yeah ... I agree with Nic on the s- the problem with, with that 400 thread conversation, like I was a big participant, there were very real good conversations about it, right?

Like- Yeah ... and I came back and I pushed it on just procedural levels at a certain point because it's like the issue of like ban LNS because they're fascist, like the merge request doesn't actually solve that issue, right? So like we can have real pragmatic conversations about this The problem was, I think there was a handful of people that got very emotional in that, and this is for better or worse in the Drupal community, we give a lot of leeway to people.

Like, if that behavior had occurred in like a workplace, it would've been like, "Knock it off. Stop it right now." But I think to some extent, like that leeway went a little too far, right? But if you look at the bulk of that conversation, there were very, very real cool, interesting conversations in that, right?

Even stuff like, so say you don't wanna touch LLMs. How far back do we have to go in Drupal to get the last human Drupal? If you wanna run Drupal with no human hands involved all the way down in the staff, how far back do you have to go? It's an interesting question. Those are things we should solve. Yeah.

So I, so I'm, I'm, I'm aligning with Nic. It was an important conversation. The problem is there was a, a, a bit of

[00:42:58] Nic: Yeah. Th- like, it, there were certainly pieces that got derailed. There were certainly ... Like, I'm not disagreeing with that. But like I said, the, the issue queue is the place for this. Like I said- It's, it's the,

[00:43:08] John: it's the pro and the con of open source, right?

Yeah. Because you, you raise an issue and then like everybody and their mother comments on that issue, and like sometimes it gets a little charged in the emotional space, right? And like, sometimes it goes a little bit off the rails. But like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know that, I don't know that we

[00:43:31] Angie: solve that once and for today, but.

My, my other observation about that discussion though is it was a lot about how do we as the Drupal community feel about AI, and that to some extent, it's not irrelevant. It's certainly relevant, but like you need to look more broadly. It was happening, right? Yeah. And that's easy for me to look 'cause I've been out of it, right?

But like I, these days, lead a DevRel team in a dev tool space. So we have to be up to date on what are trends emerging in the- Yeah ... the general gen pop of developers. We have like 12 SDK languages, so it's not just PHP, but it's like Python and JavaScript and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and what we see, and that's why it was shocking to kinda come to DrupalCon and be like, "Oh my God, this is like 2024.

Whoa." You know? It's kinda like, because everywhere else, and there's like data, surveys, whatever to back this up, it's like developers are, have moved. They're not even are moving, they have moved to the, the use of these tools as like a frontline thing. So, I mean, why that's important- Yeah ... to include in the conversa- in the wider conversation is you at some point want new contributors to Drupal who have never heard of it before.

They're already gonna be using the tools that they're comfortable with when they come- Yeah ... to your community. And it's, it's, it, it, acting the way that people were acting in that issue- is to some extent, like in the year 2026, wearing a CVS rules, get Drools T-shirt, and it's like, whoa, this place is not good.

Right. And it's just like, so we have to watch that, right? Because-

[00:44:58] John: Yeah ...

[00:44:58] Angie: again, when it's online, in public, LLMs are getting trained on it, right? It's just like- Yeah ... you wanna be very careful about like, you know, how you're- Yeah.

[00:45:08] Scott: So I- H- h- here's my question though. What do we do though? So as a participant in that thread that was trying to be completely rational about that, like what power do I have over the person that wants to be in there calling people a fascist, right?

[00:45:19] Angie: So I think if, if I were still around, uh, which I am still-

[00:45:22] Scott: You are still around. Yes, I'm still around So first of all, first of all, yes.

[00:45:25] Angie: So first of all, I, I would, you know, do you want like... Here's a soapbox rant from a former community person here. Yeah. Um, just like the community working group should be on this, right?

And should be pro- I- That I know they post little canned responses- Yeah ... and that's fine, but like- I mean, they, they- It's very clearly- They- ... a planned response. Dig in. Take the angry people, pull them aside, and do actual conflict mediation with them. Yeah, 'cause

[00:45:49] Nic: I, I, I, I

[00:45:50] Angie: do wonder- And remind them like these are the guidelines and you can't talk like that.

And if they continue doing it, they have further means to escalate. But like I think that's the biggest thing is these people yell 'cause they're not feeling heard. Mm-hmm. And the more they feel unheard, the more they yell. So hear them. Like that is my biggest piece of advice.

[00:46:06] Nic: Yeah. I, I, I do wonder, b- before...

Let, let's move on, but before we do- Yeah, yeah ... I just wanna say one thing too. There was... 'Cause we're, we're implying that there was one person being, uh, that was, that, that the, uh, community- That was yelling ... group might want to discuss,

[00:46:21] Angie: discuss- No, no. It was not one- It- That's the problem.

[00:46:23] Nic: Yeah. If

[00:46:23] Angie: it's one- There were many, many-

hero, that's fine. No, it's like-

[00:46:26] Nic: Yeah ...

[00:46:26] Angie: and, and again, like I do wanna move on, but you do, you did open this can of worms, so I have opinions, right? You know, and it's just like- We love,

[00:46:33] John: we love cans of worms on this show, so.

[00:46:35] Angie: Yeah. So like, okay, what was I gonna say? Da, da, da, da, something about this, something about that.

I don't know. It went. We'll, we'll move on. If I think of it later, I'll be like, "And another thing." But yeah.

[00:46:44] John: Yeah. Uh, we, th- yeah, that's totally fine. Jump back in there. I mean, I think, um, to, to put a ca- put a lid on the can of worms, I mean, I think, Scott, to your question, like, you know, there's a certain- There's, there's a, there's a certain expectation that you behave in a certain way when, when communicating with others, right?

And we should all, we should all remember that. Um, but to the, bring it back to the AI point, I mean, there are going to be certain people that just, you know, for all the reasons Angie listed, don't wanna use AI. Um, I personally look at this as like, listen, we can't put our head in the sand. We have to at least know about it, at least try to incorporate it, right?

Um, and you know, to Angie's point, there are people that are, um, coming into Drupal that are already using these tools, right? We, we, you know, we wanna, we wanna make sure that those people feel like they can, they can use, they can use Drupal. Um, before

[00:47:42] Angie: we- I think, yeah, I remembered my point too, which is like be mindful that you as a core contributor, as a contributed module author, like the people behind the software of this thing, your decisions impact millions of people, right?

Mm-hmm. Your discussions impact millions of people. Just be mindful of the impact that you have, right? And, you know, and take stock of what's happening in the world when you make these decisions. That would be my request.

[00:48:08] Scott: Yeah. I mean, uh, that, that, that's part of the reason I jumped in on this even. Like, certain things, banning AI prevents- people from being able to use these tools, right?

Like, there's, there's a real- But it

[00:48:22] Angie: doesn't, though. They're gonna use it and they're just gonna lie about it. Like, that is 100% gonna happen.

[00:48:25] Scott: No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, so like specifically, and I call out in my thread, my daughter has a cognitive disability, right? An Agents.md file in the place of that would prevent her from using some of these tools.

Got it. So it really would prevent people. Now, I, I think as, as much as it was a fun, wild conversation, like, I do think the community is better for it, right? Like, I know that during that whole conversation we went back to the AI initiative and said like, "We have this AI initiative, but nowhere did we call out protect the community, protect the maintainers."

Like, very valid things. And, and that's where like, yes, there were a lot of people who are anti-AI, and it wasn't just anti-AI just for the sake of being anti-AI, but like maintainers that have spent a lot of time on this and have very valid, real concerns that I think came out of this that were amazing, right?

So- Yep ... if I had to say, like I'm glad that conversation took place, could've been better for everyone involved, but- Yeah.

[00:49:17] Nic: It, uh- ... it was an important

[00:49:17] Scott: conversation.

[00:49:18] Nic: I'll say, I'll say I appreciate that, Scott, 'cause I'll say the... One of my concerns around it really purely was just around, you know, maintainer burnout and how to manage it, right?

Right. 'Cause we- we've seen on GitHub where these tools are trained to contribute, in 2024 and 2025, the slop decimated all these communities and in... Now that systems are getting a little bit better, right? I dunno if you saw, um, Daniel's curl blog where he talked about, um, security reports are getting better, AI generated security reports are getting better, but that's not necessarily a good thing for him because where they had one good report, uh, a week maybe before, now they have one good report a day, which means that they're spending significant amounts of time every day just going through the security issues to find out what they need to do to fix it.

So it's, it's not even just that the quality needs to be better, it's, it really is about the flood. And the Drupal community, until now, has at least core, again, not talking about contrib or custom or any of that, the core has been protected because of our, frankly, um, high barrier to entry to figuring out how to get code to a place where it can look.

Like, bots weren't gonna be submitting MRs through the Drupal.org user interface, right? And so we were, we were partially protected through that flood, and I came at it from that pr- pragmatic standpoint. Like, we, we don't want to open the floodgates and find a position where now we're just spending, uh, you know, 10 hours a day closing merge requests that don't provide value.

I think that's one of the reasons why this learners club getting back to getting back to- We saw a motto.

[00:51:08] Angie: Wow. Wow. One hell of a

[00:51:09] Nic: motto of the week there.

[00:51:10] Angie: That was, that was a great

[00:51:11] Nic: segue.

[00:51:11] Scott: Let's talk

[00:51:12] Angie: more about- What were we talking about?

[00:51:14] Nic: Um, providing a, providing tools for the community, whether they choose to use these LMs or not, providing tools for like, "Here's our quality expectations, here's our community expectations, and here's how you be a good community member."

Um-

[00:51:32] Amber: Well-

[00:51:32] Nic: I, I think that was... Go ahead, Amber.

[00:51:35] Amber: And it shows the need for a safe space.

[00:51:39] Nic: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:40] Amber: It shows the need for ambassadorship in the AI community, and- I wasn't, I, I was on vacation and I was feeling under the weather during that whole... I didn't take one peek at it. I didn't care. I'm a pragmatist. I'm trying to learn as fast as possible.

I'm trying to do my job as best I can. And, um, and I think a lot of people share my opinion. They don't want, they don't have time for the drama. They don't have the energy for it. They've done it in the past. They're burned out from it. They want to confront reality and they want to learn t- they want to learn.

Yeah. And they want to learn together, and I think that the AI Learners Club, if we want to pivot back to that, is, is the place where the community can come together, newcomers to Drupal or not, to, to learn, and have that be an open, safe space to do so. And fun. We have a lot of fun. Yeah. That's

[00:52:41] John: what we do.

Yeah. So I mean, I, I tend to, I tend to agree, um, Amber, and I will say that people might, might view me negatively for this, but like long-running threads on drupal.org, I, I just, I'm like, "I, that's too much reading. I can't do it." Um- So typically I, I don't, you know? I do prefer the kind of like, uh, IRL interactions.

Um, and it's interesting 'cause, uh, Sue Sunshine actually, uh, comments in the chat here. Um, and she's like, "Oh, I always ask myself, like, um, uh, would I step into such a discussion, would it, were it happening, you know, like a real room instead of online?"

[00:53:21] Angie: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:22] John: Um, and I always, I always l- I always like to think about that and go like, "Yes," like if I were really in front of this person or with this person or this were happening, like would I, would I, would I dive in there?

Um, and I'd like to think that I would. Um, but that's one of the things that I think, uh, to your point, Amber, like yeah, it was AI Learners Club, right? Being a Zoom, being able to see people, being able to see like what people are doing and talk to people, like I think that's, that's super valuable. Um, and uh, we got, we got Angie's backstory on, on how, uh, the club started.

Um, but I'm wondering, Amber, how you got involved.

[00:54:02] Amber: Well, I was on vacation and having a little staycation after DrupalCon, and my, uh, boss, James Sansbury, who- founder of Tugboat. Um, he was like, he told me about this, and I was a little bit oblivious. Oh, did he? Yeah. And he was like, um, he was like, "Oh, you should see if you can help out hosting this."

And, um, he said, "You should see if you can help out Angie." And I was just like, "Yes. Yes, obviously yes." Like- Neat, I did not know that ... yes, I will help out Angie. Of course I will. Like, this is my dream come true because I adore Angie. And I'm s- I, like, you know, there's always just been a piece of my heart that has been mourning her absence, and I just have been such a fan watching her, you know, in her career as, as, and what she's been doing.

And so also, like selfishly, I'm... I pivoted from 12 years working on Drupalize.Me, on, on tutorials, and when I was laid off, like what I wanted to do was go into developer advocacy. And I was, you know, kind of intimidated by Angie to reach out about my job search, but it all worked out because here I am working with Angie and learning from the best in community development and-

having a ton of fun doing it. So- Wait a second ... it's a little bit selfish in my... But also like blessing for my, for my boss to get involved- Oh, yeah ... and to carve out some time during the work week- That's awesome ... to wor- to work on this. And it, I love s- uh, even at Tugboat does work on Drupal sites, but it's, it's also like working in other, on in other stacks.

And it gives me a chance to, to stay connected to the Drupal community, which I've been a part of for like, you know, I don't know, 17 or 18 years. So I love it. I love being able to stay connected to the community. I love being able to work with Angie in organizing. I'm having a ton of fun. So- So- ... that's why I got, how I got roped in.

[00:56:05] John: So I feel like, I feel like James might, might be a genius, or this may backfire on him. Because what I hear, what I just heard there was- ... James, who's your boss, said, "Hey, go get involved with this thing." And you somehow turned it into like a dev rel mentorship with, with Angie, uh, and, and you guys are kind of running, running this AI learners club, which, um, you know, that sounds fabulous.

I, I like it.

[00:56:34] Amber: Like I said, I'm a pragmatist.

[00:56:36] John: Yeah.

[00:56:36] Angie: So.

[00:56:37] John: Yeah.

[00:56:37] Angie: I think, I think we're all prag- like, I'm also a pragmatist. I lean more towards this end of the scale 'cause, uh, they, you know, like I don't have time to code anymore, and now AI can code for me, and I think that's really cool. But like, but, but the Drupal community by and large, the contributor community I should say, are, are a lot of engineers.

And engineers are like, "Don't-" BS me. See how I'm, I'm sticky. Self-censoring.

[00:56:59] John: Self-censoring.

[00:56:59] Angie: We love it ... BS me. But I don't want to hear about how this is a transformational technol- da-da-da-da. Like, tell me what it does. And so that's- Yeah ... kinda where we started is, like the first episode, which is online and you can r- see it, is like literally I just put this event in Luma, also cross-posted it to Drupal, 'cause I don't know anymore where Drupal people look for events, but there's like an events calendar, and then posted it in a Slack channel.

And I was like, "I'm gonna do this. It's at this time," 'cause this is a time in my life where I have no phone calls, which is very rare this, these days. But anyway, I was just like, "I'm gonna do this, and anyone who wants to come, come." And I figured, like, maybe 20 people. There was like 150 people or something that like signed up- It was crowded,

[00:57:38] Scott: yeah

and I was like, "Oh." That first one

[00:57:38] Angie: was crowded. You know? And then, and then I'm doing it live, right? And I'm like, "Okay, here we go." 'Cause I knew there were some very angry people, and I didn't know how that was gonna go, right? So i- I get on, and I had done like a tiniest bit of pre-game that I, you know, kind of floated this in Slack.

Jurgen had responded and said, "Oh, I'd love to do it," and I basically picked a time that worked for he and I. So at least one person would be there to show and tell, and then if no one else raised their hand it was gonna be fine. Like, we would just let Jurgen keep talking and people would learn things.

But instead, like three people raised their hand. It was, it was Jurgen, it was Mike Herschel, and it was Scott Falconer. And, um, and so we just kinda went, "Okay, let's dive in," right? You know what I mean? And, and so, um, so s- uh, Jurgen talked about, uh, the s- the kinda skill set-up that he uses and, and that, we got some questions from like Jay Rockawitz, who was like, "Well, would you check that in?

Do you not check that in?" It was just like... And we just started talking, right? Then Mike jumps in with like... And it was so funny, 'cause I'm like, "Keep the demos to five minutes." And of course, his segment is like 28 minutes. Right. But anyway, he... Very on brand. But anyway. But it was so fascinating, because he's like, "So I'm a front end developer," right?

And like, one of the really important things when you're a front end developer is you ch- make changes to the markup in the CSS, it's gonna potentially break things, right? And, and I needed a, like a, a, a tool to tell me what that... And I don't know much about that, but Claude does. So I just said, "Hey, Claude, build me a tool."

So he built a visual regression tool, right? And he's like, "I don't know what code is in there. I don't care, 'cause I'm not checking that into Drupal core. But the part that I care about is what changes it's making, and that stuff I reviewed for." You know what I mean? That... And then he ended up using that same tool to find a bug in Drupal core.

Like, and I'm like, "That's amazing," you know? And then Scott is out here like, "Yeah, I like..." I can't even remember, you were talking about, were you talking about GStack at the time? And like- something else. But kinda like these tools that are, like, the forefront of, like, you know, very, very into AI people are, like, using these things to sort of orchestrate some of the thi- You know what I mean?

It was just like, you know, so it was a wonderful range where you had Juergen sort of self-identifying as someone who's like, "Look, I'm just starting out. Let me share what I've learned so far." You had somebody who'd actually done a thing pretty impressively so, that actually helps with the maintainer burnout problem, which is a legitimate problem, right?

Mm. We don't want to burn maintainers out. And so this was a really interesting middle ground where it's like, "AI did a thing, but I still reviewed all the code that it generated myself," right? And then you have Scott saying, "This is the hard-" And it was just like chef's kiss. But that was just, like, dumb luck, you know what I mean?

Yeah. It was just dumb luck that all of those people showed up, but it was like, I was inspired by the Drupal Dojo. I don't know if people remember that from back in the day. Oh, yeah. It was the same, same kind of vibe. It was like, look, we're all learning, right? Just show what you know, and if what you know is, "I built my first blog in Drupal," that is awesome.

If what you're learning is, "I just read every single API parameter in this particular module and now I have a presentation," whatever. But, like, it doesn't matter. Just talk about it and share what you know, you know? So that's-

[01:00:40] Scott: So-

[01:00:41] Angie: It was really

[01:00:41] Scott: cool ... yeah. Since then, like how do you kinda like find or select content for that, since that first one?

I know you've had several. Like, how do you pick and choose the content?

[01:00:50] Angie: Uh, it's pretty much a mix of who... It, it... mostly who raises their hand is honestly the biggest driver of it. Um, we also gather feedback through the feedback after the session, as well as there's a tab in Sl- in the Slack channel, AI Learners Slack, where people can suggest and vote on topics, but I don't know how many people actually do that.

So you can suggest and vote on topics in the Slack. Anyway, but like anyway. So, like, we know for example, that one of the most burning topics people wanna know about is this AI stuff for site builders. So, like, all of my friends are developers, right? And so a lot of the topics so far have been all coding agents or skills or like this kind of a thing.

And a lot of people are like, "Yeah, but how do I use Drupal with AI behind it?" And I don't know anything about that anymore, right? I haven't used Drupal in a while.

[01:01:37] John: So here's-

[01:01:38] Angie: But we have a couple of sessions coming up about that, which is pretty cool.

[01:01:41] John: Yeah. Here's a, here's a real, real world, some real world feedback or voting on Most Wanted.

So we talked about best practices in the compo- uh, Composer plugin, right? Um, and in my head I'm like, "That's really cool. I'd really like to use that," but I personally have not actually installed AI on my laptop for, like, development use, right? 'Cause that kinda weirds me out a little bit. Like I've used- Yeah

it, you know, in my, on my corporate machine in a, like a safe space. I've used it, you know, at the ChatGPT website. But like, I don't know, a, a, uh, you know, explain it to me like I'm a five-year-old, uh, version of, like, local development with, with a, uh, with, with a, a, a, a AI friend could be, could be, could be a good one.

[01:02:29] Angie: Yeah, I, uh, I, I, I like that t- idea a lot and, and it is, it is a legitimate thing. There's like, I forget, there's this guy Steve Yegge who is way, way over here on the pro side, and he, uh, framed it up as like there's eight stages or something of AI acceptance or I forget how it was though. But it's basically like stage zero is I'm hand coding everything, all the way up to stage eight, which is like I am now orchestrating orchestrators of orchestrated, and it's all orchestration all the way down, and I never have reviewed a line of code in the last six months.

Like that, that's the spectrum. And I think a, a guide to how you move from one of those levels to the other, because I think you do actually have to go through all of them. Like, you can spend some time or, or more time or less time at each level, sort of like Couch to 5K or how I understand- ... Couch to 5K works, but-

[01:03:16] John: But like I

[01:03:16] Angie: guess my question-

I think that's a really good idea because if you're over here at stage zero or one, stage eight sounds like bananas, right? It's like, "Wow, how would I ever do that? That makes no sense."

[01:03:27] John: I g- I guess my concern is more like, um, unleashing an AI on my personal, like, system seems scary to me because- Yeah ... I, I don't, I don't, I don't yet know enough of like how to gate it, uh, appropriately so that like, you know, it's not like, "Oh, now I know your bank account information," or now I know like- They already

[01:03:48] Nic: do 'cause your bank is using AI.

[01:03:50] Amber: No. Well, yeah. Oh. You might- Oh ... you might be interested in our, our security guardrails talk. Marlene, uh, did this amazing overview of security best practices for AI. So yeah, we're, we're tackling this and some of the live demos, um, like what Eduardo did, where he did live demo of, uh, everything installed on his machine.

But I agree, like more share your setup- future sessions are, are definitely a great idea. People wanna see... People are so, um, empowered by seeing it first on video, and that's always just been the case. Yeah. And so yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I

[01:04:29] Angie: also think, like, they, they're, they're... The demos are all like, "I already did this.

Let me show you how I did it." And I think what, what we've missed is the connective tissue, which is like, okay- Yeah ... here's the bare bones Drupal site with nothing at all done. Now I'm gonna do this to it, cha cha cha cha. Right? Like, that, that hasn't been done yet. I think that might be what Mike's session is about coming up, but-

[01:04:49] Amber: Yeah, Mike's gonna do, uh, Mike Anello, DrupalEasy, he's writing a course on set- using the AI tools in Drupal, so the Drupal AI ecosystem, and he's going to do an overview for us on getting those modules initially installed and set up and configured.

It's like basically preparing to do cool stuff in Drupal with the Drupal AI module ecosystem. So his... And he does, he's been, uh, doing a training around different camps, um, called, uh, like I think it's, like, Responsible AI Basics is the name of his trainings, just to give him a plug. So he's working in that space.

There's also, like, a lot of our s- live streams so far have been really developer focused. There has, in our poll, there's been demand for more beginner sessions, and that's why I reached out to Mike about that.

[01:05:38] Nic: Okay.

[01:05:38] Amber: So that's coming up in a couple of weeks.

[01:05:41] Nic: And, and so this, this obviously is a, a Drupal initiative, so how...

When you're having one of these meetings or trainings or sessions, how much is it focused on Drupal versus the AI itself? Uh, 'cause I imagine different people are using different tools too, and different models obviously have different implications. Are you focusing more on the Drupal side or the- There,

[01:06:06] Angie: there always has to be a Drupal reason to talk about something.

So you can't, you don't just come on there and pitch your thing and be like, you know, "I made this. Woo," you know? But, um, but I think, uh... But because they've been so code-heavy, like again, that's, that's my friend group is all developers doing, and contributors and stuff like that. And so, um, so a lot of it has been, "I'm using external AI tool in this particular way to accomplish task in Drupal."

And what we haven't had a lot of so far, and again, it's like you wanna talk about it, raise your hand. We'd be happy to schedule it for you. Um, you know, is, "I'm a Drupal user and I want to write a blog post with AI," or like whatev- like, again, I'm hand-waving. I don't actually know. I don't actually know what AI- Well-

those are do that, but.

[01:06:54] Amber: But our skills, like the people who have been talking about skills, um, that's been very, like- That's

[01:06:59] Angie: true.

[01:06:59] Amber: Yeah ... Drupal- That's true ... they're Drupal developers. They've developed either, like a set of skills or cloud plugins, um, uh, like Carlos' talk on hi- his setup. So it's been very Drupal developer focused.

We've got some- Okay ... Drupal site builder. Like Kristen's gonna come on and talk about contacts control center at the end of June. And, um, and so like the, their, the AI site building stuff, but some of the topics are like the security is like, no matter what you're using AI for, like, here are some things that you need to keep in mind.

So I think it's a community of Drupal folks. A lot of the stuff has been tied into Drupal developers and, and Drupal site builders specifically, but some of the topics are like, they apply to however, in whatever context you're using AI.

[01:07:50] John: So w- we, we've, uh, we've evaporated most, most of our time. We got like six minutes left, and I wanna- Oh

I wanna try to cover like these last two, two questions real quick. Um, so this next one maybe like, uh, sh- two sentence, two sentence answers on, on this next one, and then the, the last one we'll go, we'll go full, full on, full-blown answers. But, um, uh, uh, we promised at the top of the show that we'd talk about AI taking our jobs.

Um, so I'm curious, uh, does anybody think that's gonna happen?

[01:08:31] Amber: If you want two sentences, I would say I would pu- push back on the framing of it and say AI is transforming the way that we work. Yes. But I do think that, uh, i- it is coming for the way that we've been doing our work, and learning how AI and these LLM tools work will help you to become part of the conversation- Hmm

and not just a victim of circumstances, and help you to adapt in this chaotic era that we're in.

[01:09:05] Angie: Yeah.

Well said. Yeah. Any, any- I, I would say just to tack onto that, uh, my two cen- if we both get two cents, I don't know. But like, um, that, um, I think by understanding these tools better, you can understand how to make them do the parts of your job that you don't like very much- Mm-hmm

so that you can stay focused on the things that you do like a lot. Um, and that's probably the biggest unlock with AI is, uh, I hate having to track down in Slack and Notion and Google Docs and da, da, da, da, da all the things that my team did all quarter, and now I just say, "AI, go find the thing and prepare the report," and it just does it, right?

Like, so that, but, but that leaves me free to have, like, the human-to-human conversations with my team. That leaves me to think about strategy. I would not, uh, I would not outsource that stuff to AI, right? Like, that's part of me and who I am- ... as an entrepreneur and a leader.

[01:09:57] John: Like- Your team's not having one-on-ones with AI?

That's, that's great. That, that-

[01:10:02] Angie: Legit, like, like Meta did that, right? They encoded Mark Zuckerberg in an AI so more people could talk to the C- it's like, oh my God. Anyway. That, that makes you a good boss. There's some stuff that it's just like, no, it's not coming for those jobs. But yeah, I mean- Yeah. I, I would say, like, that's the way to think about it, is- Yeah

AI's powerful, AI can also be really dumb. So play with it and understand what its capabilities are, and then think about your work through the standpoint of what do I wanna do more of, what do I wanna do less of? And experiment and try to find ways that AI can do more of the stuff you wanna do less of.

[01:10:33] John: Yeah.

[01:10:34] Scott: I, I, I think that's a good way to put it. And, you know, AI will change every job. I think it's gonna make a lot more jobs, but it is your competition in the market. So understand what it does well, and if you do the exact same thing AI does well, that's a concern. I- There's a lot of other stuff ...

[01:10:47] John: it's interesting, 'cause I agree with all of your points, and n- I don't wanna go all the way back to the, the beginning of our conversation-

'cause, like, there was a lot there. But, like, one of the things I thought was, like, the people that are like, "No, AI is evil. I'm gonna put my head in the sand," like, I, I worry for them.

[01:11:05] Scott: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:06] John: I worry for them because, like, AI is going to change the way that everybody works, and they may get left behind. I also worry that, like, if, if, you know, as we start building these, like, the, you know, the, the...

As we start evolving with this AI, like, if those people don't understand it, there may, there may be- I don't know. We're just gonna end up leaving them behind, and that makes me sad.

[01:11:29] Scott: Um- Yeah, and that- So that's why, that's why they're- That's, that's bad for us, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's bad for the community. It's bad for the community to lose those people.

Like, that's why I love the conversations with the naysayers of AI, 'cause it's like they're all brilliant people that do exceptional things, and like should be part of the conversation.

[01:11:43] John: Yeah, but- Yeah,

[01:11:43] Scott: it would be a huge

[01:11:44] John: loss to not have them ... I mean, I think framing it as a tool that you use is a lot better than like a, you know, sentient being that's, that's f- deviously- Yeah

trying to, trying to undermine you. Um, okay.

[01:11:57] Angie: No. But, but just real quick to go back to the topic. Sure. That's why one of our founding principles is every week, literally at the top, it's like we follow the code of conduct, first of all, 'cause I don't want rude people. Second of all, there are no stupid questions.

Any questions on the table, it's like everyone is learning. This stuff changes way too fast. If you were an expert last week, you're no longer an expert, right? It's just like, so I don't think we'll leave those people behind. I think the Drupal AI Learners Club is one of many ways that they can, uh, no matter where they're at on their spectrum, just join and talk and learn, like, you know?

And, and again, it's like it, it'll change. It constantly changes, and that's okay. Just grab the bus and whoa, you know? Like, and then we'll help you.

[01:12:37] John: I, I often, Angie, every time you say that on the AI Learners Club, um, I often think in my head of like the dumbest question, and like I wanna like ask it. And like, you know- Please do

one I, one I just thought of was like, um, you know, maybe on the next one I'm gonna be like, "So after asparagus, why does my pee smell?" Right?

[01:13:00] Angie: Well, I would ask an LLM about that, friend, or a doctor. I don't know, like it-

[01:13:04] John: That's a, that's a good idea. Maybe I'll toss that, or maybe I don't want to. I don't know.

Anyway. All right. Um, we've literally, uh, gone through all of our time. Right. But I wanna get to our last question 'cause I think it's important for everybody to know what is the future of the AI Learners Club? Where's it going? You've had a couple of sessions. You might have a vision for the future. What is it?

[01:13:26] Angie: Um, for the most part, I don't have much of a vision. It's been YOLO and it's been who's gonna volunteer and let's get them to it. So it's more of an enablement type of tool. But I do think longer term, AI Learners Club is filling a gap right now where there's no, there was nothing and nothing, especially for like contributors and developers.

'Cause the AI initiative, rightly so in my opinion, is very focused on site builders and content authors. And the, the, the contributors whose entire way of working is being blown up around them as we speak are just kind of left to fend for themselves. So we have a solution for them, but it's very patchy, right?

Because it's very like, "Who offered to talk about this? We're gonna..." So what I would like to do I think over time is, we're, we have like some really great knowledge that's being shared in here, and whether through this initiative or through, say, some AI initiative funded thing or whatever, I think the Drupal community needs, and I apologize Amber, I wanna get your two cents 'cause this might be triggering, but I think it needs like proper structured education around how to engage with this.

Because the AI Learner Club is like random facts, and someone to take those random facts, sequence them appropriately, and like put, think about them through the idea of learner outcomes and stuff, that is definitely a missing piece. And we're never gonna do that because this isn't my full-time job. This isn't even a job.

This is a hobby project I do on my nights and weekends.

[01:14:44] John: Putting the learner in learners club is what I just heard there.

[01:14:47] Amber: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I was talking to a friend about this problem, and I think it's called like the 2023 problem, where all content e- that the a- the LLMs were trained on were, like the peak of that was 2023.

Oh, yeah. And so like that's kind of the, the lock-in of the knowledge. And sites like Drupalize.Me and documentation sites, like companies that are, are f- laying off their documentation teams, they're gonna s- uh, we're gonna feel that. I don't know when we're gonna feel it, but it's going to happen. And as... I mean, Drupal Core is continuing to innovate.

It's changing radically. It's taking out modules that have been in there for a really long time, like all... It's changing the API. It's cha- there's so many changes that are happening, and I think that the, the trend toward making the code base the source of knowledge is gonna help with that. But like the understanding, the, the newcomer to Drupal using LLM tools, the, you know, and there's people working on this problem, but Yeah, one of the...

Yeah, I, I could go on and on about this, but, um, it's, I think it's a thing. I think it's a need. And, um, people that are gonna be writing structured content for AI, it's, that's a really hard problem because this stuff is moving so fast. And tutorials, like really high quality educational materials, it takes time to develop.

It takes a lot of work to maintain. If you want video, that's a whole nother level. And so having these livestreams is a nice stopgap because we're taking the pulse week by week, and people are sharing what they're doing right now. So it's a good stopgap, but it, you know, I don't know what else to say about it.

Yeah.

[01:16:43] John: I, I do also like the, uh, the, the format of the club. Um, you kind of have that kind of like what's happening, what happened this week or this

[01:16:51] Amber: month- Yeah ...

[01:16:52] John: in, in, in AI section, where folks can kind of post links and stuff. And that, that feels very like timely, and it gives folks a second to be like, "Okay, this is what I'm seeing.

Like, is o- are other people seeing this?" Um, so the way, the way you guys, I feel like you guys answered that question was like, "Hey, AI Learners Club is gonna evolve as fast as AI does," which is very rapidly. So, um, I'm excited.

[01:17:15] Angie: Well said. Would you like to join our marketing team? I'm just ki-

[01:17:20] John: Well, um, y- no, 'cause I have a, you know, a podcast and that takes, that takes a lot of my, um, uh, nights and weekends, as you guys, as you guys said.

[01:17:31] Nic: All right. Angie and Amber, thank you for joining us. Uh, it's been a pleasure having you on- Thank you ... to talk about the Learners Club.

[01:17:36] Angie: Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. Thank you.

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[01:18:28] Nic: All right, Angie, if our listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

[01:18:33] Angie: Honestly, probably over LinkedIn at this point in my life. I'm a hiring manager, and so that's where I have to, uh, contractually do that.

Uh, but I hang out on, uh, Drupal Slack, and that's probably honestly the best place.

[01:18:45] Nic: Awesome. And Amber, how about you?

[01:18:47] Amber: Same. Exactly the same. So-

[01:18:49] Nic: How would- which would you say-

[01:18:50] Amber: LinkedIn, uh, my LinkedIn profile or, um, in the Drupal Slack, Amber Matz.

[01:18:56] Nic: That's perfect. And Scott, how about you?

How can our listeners get in touch with you, Scott?

[01:19:02] Scott: Sorry. Yeah, you cut out. Uh, yeah, Scott Falkner on Slack or, uh, LinkedIn is great.

[01:19:08] Nic: No problem. How about you, John?

[01:19:10] John: Uh, you can find me personally at picozzi.com. You can find me on the socials and Drupal Slack at johnpicozzi, and you can find out about EPAM at epam.com.

[01:19:22] Nic: All right. And you can find me pretty much everywhere @nicxvan, N-I-C-X-V-A-N.

[01:19:27] John: And if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking. Have a good one every buddy.

[01:19:33] Angie: Yeah. Thanks so much everyone. Thanks everyone.