Talking Drupal #549 - Catching up with the DDEV Team

John: This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design development from a group of people with one thing in common. We love Drupal. This is episode 5 49, catching up with the D Dev team. On today's show we're talking about D Dev, what's new and where the popular dev tool is going with our guests, Randy Faye and Stass Hook will also cover D Dev Drupal Contri as our module of the week.

Welcome to Talking Drupal. Our guests today are Randy Faye and STAs Hook. STAs is a d Dev maintainer and longtime PHP developer from Ukraine. He focuses on making local development more stable and easier for thousands of developers around the world. STAs, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us.

Stas: Thank you for having me.

John: And Randy is an old Drupal hack. I disagree with that, but we'll give it to you. Um, or an old hack in general who has ended up maintaining D Dev these many years. He loves helping people out with the local development and web, with their local development and web troubles, and also has quite a life of bike packing.

Randy, how are you doing today?

Randy: It's great to see everybody again. Way fun.

John: I am John Pzi, solutions architect at e Pam. And today my co-hosts are joining us back. Uh, doing well. I hear Rod Martin, owner at Navigate Tomorrow. Rod, you're feeling better?

Rod: I am. Thanks. It was not the experience I wanted last week, but glad to be back.

John: We're glad to have you. Nick Laughlin, founder at Enlightened Development. How's it going, Nick?

Nic: Good morning. Excited to talk about D Dev.

John: I am too. But before we do that, let's talk about our module of the week. And to do that, we're gonna turn it over to Martin Anderson, a product marketing manager for Acquia, for Drupal at Acquia, sorry, Martin.

And a maintainer of a number of Drupal modules of his own. Martin, what do you have for us this week?

Martin: Thanks John. Have you ever wanted a local development environment specifically optimized for working on Drupal contri projects? There's a D Dev add-on for that. It's called D Dev Drupal Contri. It was created in April of 2023 by Mosha Weitzman and, uh, Deza Bizo of um.

Of the D dev team, it was has a 1.1 0.5 version available. It is actively maintained. In fact, I see there was a commit just this morning and it does have test coverage. And for documentation there is a pretty good read me. It does have eight open issues, three of which are bugs, uh, which is pretty good considering it has 130 stars on GitHub.

Now, when you use this D dev add-on, you'll have a local environment for your Contrib projects specifically set up to be aligned with the GitLab CI approach from the Drupal Association. That means you're set up to run locally all the code quality tools that can run in the GitLab CI code, link static analysis tools like P-H-P-C-S and PHP Stand and any tests that you have set up for your project.

Running these locally should be much faster than in the GitLab's ci, so you can iterate faster through the process of identifying and rectifying any issues, plus less time spent running those jobs in GitLab. Should save the DA a little money as well. This add-on provides new D dev commands notionally, one for each of the CI jobs, PHP unit Es lint style lint, and so on.

That makes it fast to rerun a specific job that you're working on. It also adds a new Posr command that creates a temporary composer contribute JSO so that Drupal core recommended becomes a dev dependency and runs composer install so that your project's dependencies are all available. Another new command is SIM link project, which creates a sim link to your project in the appropriate directory by default web slash module slash custom.

The new, uh, command worth noting is core version, which updates your code base to a newer or older version of Drupal Core. And that sounds super useful to me. Now, I will add that in the process of researching this add-on, I noticed that the DA GitLab CI now includes a new job to test compatibility with Drupal CMS, which I personally hadn't heard of before.

I did see, didn't see a command for that in D Dev Drupal Contri, so maybe that could be a feature request. So let's talk about d Dev Drupal Contri.

John: So. You go first, Nick.

Nic: Yeah. So I have questions because, um, me too. I, I'm curious if this, the biggest problem I always have with Contrib development is getting to the issue fork.

And I'm curious if this helps solve that 'cause, nor, I'll be honest, I normally actually do work on contribute modules that I'm not a maintainer of. So I don't like have it set up. So, as an example, um, I helped convert the Meditech module hooks to object oriented a couple weeks back. And my process had been, and maybe these work together, but my process had been, I just, I have a Drupal environment that I've set up that's on 11 whatever, and works and has core recommended and all that stuff.

And then I just require meta tag. And then Yoki has a tool that you, a composer tool that will do the switch, will check, switch it from like a. Uh, package to a GI clone, and then you can then just check out the issue fork. But that's always the most painful, painful part for me, is getting a gi clone of the project.

Does, does this add-on, solve that piece of the puzzle?

Randy: It's actually quite a bit better than, well, your, your, your approach is fine. Any way that you want to approach the problem is fine, but the way this works is you check out the contri module, meaning you can check out your fork if you want. Mm-hmm. Okay.

And then it adds Drupal to it, so. Okay. It's a, it's kind of a, a, an opposite approach and it's very, um, well, I hadn't, I hadn't tried it for quite a while, till this morning. Uh, but it's, it's very, for to solve the problem you just said, it is so clean. It's perfect.

Nic: Okay. So, so you just do a cl a clone, check out the issue of fork, and then add this add-on and you get Drupal.

That's it. Running,

Randy: that's it.

Nic: That's ac That actually solves one of the big problems with the other method, which is, um, when you have multiple projects in there, things with Drupal versions get a little sticky.

Randy: Yeah, yeah. And there's a Drupal core version, uh, command that, um, lets you choose which version, which, uh, Martin just mentioned.

Nic: Yeah, I, I'll have to try this out then. 'cause Yeah, I mean,

John: well now, now I don't have a question. 'cause that just answered my question. I was like, I was wondering if I had to have like, Drupal running in 1D Dev and then this running in another, and then like, there was some sort of back and forth they were doing, but, um, it sounds like that's not the case as this will install Drupal into your, um, into your, your kind of directory or your d dev, uh, environment.

Randy: The Joe Ake approach, which is intended for core development, um, is very sophisticated. Um, and it can be used, uh, as Nick has used it, um, with also sim linking a checkout of a contri file, but that's not the, you know, that's not exactly the normal situation, so it's good.

Nic: J just, just one minor thing. So he has multiple projects, so the one that I'm using for, this is specifically for contri, so I'm, yeah, I, I actually don't use his setup up for the core, I mean, the core development.

I've only,

Randy: I've only used that one.

Nic: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I, I have the core one. My, my core development pipeline is, uh. Let's just say more complicated than average. So, uh, that's kind of custom. But no, he, he has a contr specific one and real, it helps with switching back and forth between like a composer install and a, a gi uh,

Randy: this one has been so well maintained by MOS and Company, uh, that it's just a delight to see how well taken care of it is.

It's one of the, it's one of definitely one of the best maintained add-ons that we have. I mean, you know, except all the ones that STAs maintains all the time. But yeah, I mean, just, it's been lovely, lovely maintenance.

Nic: Awesome.

Martin: I did wanna to add one thing, Nick, which is in that scenario of just wanting to pull of, um.

You know, the, the gi like maybe a specific branch on a project, like maybe do a value at an MR or something. The other approach that I've used is just doing composer require and then you can do the preferred source flag on there. Yeah. And then that gives you the Git repository that then you can switch to any branch.

So for me, that also has been pretty clean, but you know, this gives you certainly a lot of extra advantages over that.

Nic: I have to get that in mind. 'cause I, I have used that actually in the past, but I always forget about it.

John: Um, how, I mean, this sounds like a pretty, pretty easy like way to approach, uh, contribute module development even for like a, um, dumb dumb like me, right?

So like, yeah. Would you say it's, it's pretty easy to implement. Are there any, um, gotchas that any of you have seen kind of, kind of working with this that, that people should know of?

Randy: I just followed the read me and. Boom. There I had it. Um, the only thing I was missing, but maybe was the core version, and I had tru trouble with Dr.

Um, that I, that I don't understand, but I think it's because of the current, uh, Dr being in the middle of multiple worlds problem.

Nic: Yeah, there's, there's some, I think they finally fixed the Symphony eight stuff for Dr, but there was some, there, there was about three weeks where Dr just didn't work with heads.

So if you didn't end up on kind of a release version of Drupal, DR wouldn't work. But

Martin: yeah, I will say I haven't actually personally had a chance to try this yet, but, um, as I discovered this and was reading through how it works, I could definitely think back to a number of occasions where this would've been a huge time saver for me.

So I'm pretty excited to try it out.

John: Awesome. Maybe you can provide us an update up once you do, maybe we can just get Moshan and talk about it for a whole episode. Sounds like a, sounds like a pretty good idea.

Randy: I, I, I, you could have a whole Moosh episode. You could just have a moosh episode. Like

Nic: Yeah.

Randy: 25 years of Dr, you know,

John: episode 5, 45, 40 something Moosh.

Nic: We, we, we should get 'em on to talk about the new, uh, Drupal, uh, command that they're working on, the new CLI command that they're working on. There's a lot of energy behind that.

John: Gosh, that sounds ominous.

Nic: Yeah, they're looking at, they're looking to get rid of Josh and basically put it in core directly.

John: Oh, man.

Could they please do that? That feels like a way better. Way better thing.

Nic: Agree.

John: You don't agree, Nick? I can see it in your eyes. You're like, no, no, thank you.

Nic: No, there, there's advantages and disadvantages. So, very briefly, we're going off topic, but very briefly, the, the big disadvantages, as I mentioned, Trush was broken for about three weeks because we upgraded cord to Symphony eight.

DR didn't support Symphony eight.

John: Yeah, but that wouldn't happen if it were coupled, there'd be

Nic: tests. Exactly. That means that we wouldn't be able to do something like Update Symphony without updating everything that DRS has to do right now, which can take a decent amount of effort. Okay. I see. Having, having them synchronize or like Drs supports all the way from Drupal nine to Drupal 11 right now, whereas the internal tool won't, it will only support the current version.

John: So let me ask, and I know this, we're, we're turning this into the DR show, but let me ask, is there a method at which Drupal core, and I, I mean I'm sure it it there is because we include Symphony and other other projects, right? Could, could Trush just be brought in as a composer? Dependency for core?

Nic: Short answer is that, yes.

That option has been discussed, but for the same reason, because like the symphony stuff, you, you literally couldn't install Drupal at that point because it requires a different version of, and, and Dr. Yeah. Short answer is no long, slightly longer answer is look at the issue q to see why.

John: All right,

Nic: we'll, we'll, I'll put it in the show.

John: I need some late night reading. I'll be sure to go to the, uh, to the issue queue. Um, and with that said, uh, Martin, thank you for, for bringing us, um, such a topical module of the week. If folks wanted to suggest a module of the week, uh, or just chat with you, how could they go about doing that?

Martin: One thing I just wanna also mention in closing is that there is a d dev add-on registry.

So we've talked about, uh, a super cool one today, but there are also ones for doing things like core contribution or even for like visual regression testing, if that's something you wanted to do locally. So, uh, we'll have a link in the show notes, but by all means, you know, people should check that out and see if there are ways that they can, you know, get even more capability out of dev using, uh, that library of add-ons.

If folks want to talk to us about, uh, candidates for module of the week, so as we've seen, they could be modules, but they could be themes or d dev add-ons or all kinds of other fun things. We're happy to talk about those in the Talking Drupal channel of Drupal Slack. Or folks can reach out to me directly as man clue on a variety of Drupal.

Uh. Social and um, Drupal platforms. And also I will be at the Drupal AI Summit next month, actually a month from today in New York City. So hopefully I'll see some folks there.

John: Great. Thanks Martin.

Nic: Thanks a lot. See you next week.

Martin: See you next week.

John: And here's Matthew Saunders to tell us a little bit more about the Drupal AI Summit.

Randy: What Matthew's trying to say is that it's gonna be in New York City.

John: All right. Well, thank you Matthew. And, uh, hopefully, hopefully folks can get down to, uh, New York and, and join the, uh, Drupal AI Summit. I. So I like to think that everybody knows what DE is, but, um, I'm probably incorrect in that thinking. I know that everybody on this call knows what D dev is, but, um, Randy, can you just kind of tell the audience what d dev is and the problem that it's trying to solve for Drupal developers or developers in general for that matter?

Randy: So, um, the, the simplest way to think about it is that every contributor to code in a website project needs to have their own space to work in. And the normal place to do that work is on their own computer. I like to make the comparison to like artists working together on a project. They can't work on the same easel, it's just not going to work out.

They have to have a separate space where they can work that has their tools and their setup for it. And we've gone through a lot of things over the years to figure out how to do, uh, local development procedurally with Git and pull requests and branches and that kind of thing. But you have to have your own space to work and you would really like that space to be reliable and, uh, contribute, uh, configurable to do what you need to do.

So our aim with D Dev is to make that work the same on every platform and every Docker provider, um, so that developers can have their own space to work, uh, and do local development or. Separate development, you know, development of a space that I own. So that's the, that's the basic idea of DE.

Nic: So, STAs, can you maybe give us a, a quick introduction to how you got involved with D Dev? Because I know that you, because from the Drupal community, Randy's very much a face, the face of D Dev. Right? He started it. But I know the contribution that I did to d Dev, I worked with you and I know that you work on it, uh, a significant amount.

So can, can you tell us how you first heard about D Dev and how you got involved?

Stas: Yeah. I, uh, came into detail from, uh, that was, uh, my framework, uh, I was working on at that time. And, um, I just, uh, search, uh, for some tool that helped me, uh, do my work. Uh. And, uh, do not think about, uh, how can I set up my environment for this?

And, uh, one of the first, uh, my findings was, uh, gidel. And, uh, it, uh, really, uh, got, uh, my attention because it had so many features and, uh, also very nice documentation. So I immediately started using it. And, uh, after some time I, uh, wanted to, uh, contribute back. And, uh, here I am now, I a maintainer.

Nic: How, how long have you been maintaining DW now?

Has it been three years? Four years?

Stas: Uh, it's, uh, about, uh, three years.

Randy: Wow.

Stas: From, uh, 2023.

Randy: Wow. But three years as an official full-time developer. But before that, he was doing. Really, uh, sophisticated things, solving really sophisticated network problems that nobody else had a clue how to solve and things like that.

Nic: So, getting back to the show notes, um, I second question in already went off, off track. Um, can you, can you tell us some new notable features or improvements in the most recent releases? Um, you guys are always working.

Stas: Yeah.

Randy: You know, our, um, go ahead. Go ahead, STAs.

Stas: Yeah, I just, uh, wanted to say is that, uh, we, uh, follow, uh, release cycle of, uh, Debian.

So we, uh, usually, uh, make new major releases, uh, with, uh, Debian when it makes, uh, a new major, uh, dis and uh. We recently made a new one, uh, one point 25 release. And, uh, the main, uh, thing we are working on is, uh, bringing all the new versions of the tools so that developers use, like adding new PHP versions, uh, ing some dependencies and to add in, uh, new features that they request.

Randy, you can continue.

Randy: Uh, we, we, as we were talking about this this morning, uh, you know, the, the, the, uh, the Google doc was asking about features, and we do have a couple things to say about that, but. We think that our, and, and I think the community agrees our, our goals for our key features to are to be reliability and good support.

And so we, we really want to make it so that, um, you, your experience doesn't change, uh, that you can keep using D Dev the way you have. That you just, you know, the more, there's always sophisticated things being added with add-ons and otherwise, but we really want to have that consistent experience. Keep up with all the, all the stuff around us is changing all the time, as you know.

Yeah, I mean all, just like with dependencies on PHP, the dependencies, the, the things that break on DA every day or the break, you know, in our, in our, uh, upstream problems is, is something that we have to keep up with all the time. STAs had to fix something this morning because something broke and craft CMS with their latest release and, uh, so that showed up another problem.

So STAs is always paying attention to those. So reliability and good support are, are key features. Um. We do have some, some cool new features that we've added recently. The, um, the DA share was completely redone so that now you can use CloudFlare D as a, um, as, as in addition to N Rock, um, as a shared device.

And a lot of people don't even know what DW share is. It's a way to share with any of your collaborators anywhere on the internet. Uh, people there, there's, there's a fair number of DW users that have never used it, even though it's been in there for, you know, as long as I can remember. But now it's even easier.

So that's a very cool thing. Um,

Nic: I, I think the only time I've ever used it was for mobile testing.

Randy: It works great for mobile testing. That's a great

Nic: one. Yeah, when I wanted

Randy: to visit

Nic: it on my phone, but

Randy: yeah, I don't use that feature.

Nic: Yeah, I don't use that nearly enough.

Randy: People try to set up their local networks so they can do mobile testing.

You can do it and it's documented, but wow. DF share is so much easier 'cause you don't have to do anything to your mobile or think about, uh, so many things that work so much easier. But also, STAs did this enormous work to add pod man support, um, into d Dev, which is not a trivial thing 'cause Podded and Docker are not the same thing.

But he, he actually worked for, uh, like a year doing the prereqs for every piece of doing that. He, he saw it as the whole process and he did all the pieces of getting us into using the APIs instead of using Docker directly, for example. And then the, the final denu May was actually having Pod Man support in, uh, one point 25.

Oh

Nic: wow.

Randy: Uh,

John: sorry, I'm not, I'm not familiar with what Pod man is.

Randy: It's a Docker alternative. You wanna say something about it, Josh?

Stas: It's, uh, just like a docker, but, uh, without, uh, root because, uh, usual Docker GI runs under root user. Yeah. So it has, uh, some complications in, uh, restricted environments. So if, uh, some people, some companies have some policies for this, they can use, uh, Portman with D Dell right now.

Randy: Mm. Oh, that's useful. It's also, uh, has a different history. It's another way to run containers, but it is not from the Docker family. It comes outta Red Hat. And, uh, so it's out of that whole, so you find people that use fedora or whatever that are very, um. Very opinionated about the fact that you shouldn't be using Docker because it's commercial and stuff like that.

Which it's not correct that the core of Docker is open source, but you'll find people very opinionated and, uh, a few people, especially on Linux that are very happy to have that, uh, that new pod man, uh, especially rootless pod man support. Yeah.

John: Very cool. Uh, just a reminder to our, uh, listeners. Um, we're, we're live right now.

We're streaming this live out to, uh, to a couple places. So if you're in those places and, uh, you want to comment, feel free, feel free to do that. We'll try to bring your, your comments, questions in, and, uh, talk about 'em, talk about 'em with the d dev team,

Nic: and wanted to say, uh, hi to Rajab and Taryn. Uh, thank you for, for watching.

Rod: So I've got a question for you guys. Um, again, I don't know how we would do Drupal without d dev these days. Um, give us an idea about how the Drupal Dev or how the developer experience in general has changed in the last year. Uh, with D Dev, there's been so many. It's like you said, it's so big, um, you know, hardly anyone knows about share or not enough people know about share.

There's so many parts to it. How has that evolved over the last year For developers?

Randy: We like to say that it, um, is it stays the same unless you need to use extra things. Um, so, you know, Mike and Ello wrote a book about using d Dev, uh, like in 2018 or, you know, a long, long time ago. And I'll bet you that you could do everything that he said.

Still, it might not be the best way to do it, um, these days, but I'll bet you you could use the exact commands in that book

Rod: Yeah.

Randy: And do everything you needed to do.

Rod: Yeah. I'll, I'll agree with you on that. 'cause I've read that book and, and I reviewed it and I actually did videos based on the book

John: or,

Rod: and, uh, yeah, I a hundred percent

John: if the command doesn't work, there's a very polite message telling you why it doesn't work.

Yes. And what you can do to get it to work. That is one of the Yeah. Exactly. Greatest things I find about D Dev is the fact that even when I type something wrong, it goes, well, I think you meant this. And I go, yes, I did. And then, and then if it's like, oh, this is deprecated. Here are the steps you need to like fix this problem.

Right. So it's. It's very, very useful in that way.

Nic: I will say the one thing that I wish was easier and tell me what I'm doing wrong because I can never remember when I need to update database versions. My process always, for some reason, sometimes the documentation for that process doesn't show up when I Google it.

So here's my process. When I need to upgrade database versions, I go into the config YAML and change it to the new version. Run d dev start. It says, Hey, you changed the database version. You can't do that. Change it back and then run this command. And then I have to copy that command, change it back, start it from the command to migrate.

'cause I know it's like something like migrate database or something. Really, I just want, I just want command to be like D-Day D Dev update Maria DB

John: 10 11. You do you have like a Evernote or a notes app that you drop helpful things into? Because that feels like a real good solution for that one.

Randy: I

Rod: do it.

So, really? Oh man, that's harsh. That's harsh.

Randy: Um, the, uh, the thing, I'll, I'll make a note and try to get it into the release, uh, to the, uh, to the notes here. Uh, basically all you needed was the original command that you later ran after you took out. Yeah. But, um, it, it is complicated because there are, um, there are just restrictions on what the actual database binary can handle.

And so that's why we make you, uh, basically delete and then reload your database from text version after a change.

Nic: Yeah.

Randy: Uh, and it's, it's, I, I claim that it's because of the underlying databases requirement. Um, there are, um, you can upgrade. Like Maria db usually one version at a time, but a lot of times you and your situation Nick, are probably wanting to go from 10, you know, from from 10 11 to 11 eight or something like that.

Yeah. Which is not explicitly supported. Um, so

Nic: yeah. And, and, and many times, e even if there's a flag or something, 'cause many times I have a local copy of the database already, and so I can just reimport it if something goes wrong. So like, it, it, it's almost like it, I'd almost want like, Hey, we noticed you changed this, is it okay to just blow away the database?

And then I can say yes, and then it'll update and I'll reimport the one I have. Or I can say, no, I need to back it up first and, and kind of roll it back and, and fix it. But yeah,

John: wouldn't it have to first downgrade, get a, get a copy of the database and then, and then go through that process? Not that I'm trying to solution, but it comes naturally to me as a solution architect.

Nic: No, no. O only only if I don't have a local copy. Right, right. The import it, I mean, there's cer there are some versions where that wasn't perfect. Backwards compatibility.

John: If that happened to me, and I've updated my database like maybe all of two times since I started using D Dev so long ago. Right. Like, if that happened to me, I wouldn't have a copy of my database.

Like I'd have to do whatever. Well, that's, I'm like, I'd have to go back.

Nic: That's like it. That's what I'm saying. It can be a prompt. So if you update it, it can be like, Hey, we can continue this update, but we're gonna delete the database or we can back it out and you can back up your database first.

Martin: Hmm.

Randy: Yeah. You, you know, that'd be a welcome issue, Nick. Why, why don't, why don't you, I can that propose your, um, propose your solution Because I, I have done, I, I have seen people, uh, hit that bump before. And, uh, maybe I've even hit it, but I just delete, I I always have a local text dump as well. Yeah. And so I just need have, delete and change it and go on with my way.

Uh, but, uh, a a little bit of prompting there would be really useful. So an issue would be very welcome.

John: This is, I can, this is, this is also key insight as to how Randy's been able to effectively manage, manage this project for so long. 'cause he is a, he's a master at, at delegating and also very, very welcoming to say like, Hey, go put an issue in for that.

We'll talk about it. And then like, we might say no, or we might say yes and who knows, but put an issue in. Let's start there. Um, so I, I wanna ask about coder dot d dev.com and, and how it's bringing d Dev into the cloud. Randy, can you tell us a little bit about what coder dot d dev.com.

Randy: So, uh, we had, for a long time there was a lovely service called GI Pod.

And, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of, um, Drupal uh, contributing stuff was built around that. We had some really nice features that were done. There was a, a thing called Drupal Pod that would open a Drupal issue. Um, and, um, and GI Pod just decided that they wanted to be an AI or AI company and they changed their name and threw everything away.

And, um, you know, things happen. And, uh, the, uh, so the, the solutions after that were there. There are, there, there is a, a competing solution and, um. I'm a little sad to be competing with it because it was some good, uh, Drupal Forge, the folks that do Drupal Forge, uh, yeah, did build, uh, a, uh, they, they put effort into moving that Drupal pod, uh, capability into Drupal Forge, which is, which is very welcoming.

Good, good. But it was not using, uh, DEV and it did not, so it did not, um, introduce people to development the way they would actually use it in a local setup. And so we wanted to get something back like that. And we used, uh, coder.com, which is an open source, or at least the core. Core is open source. It's one of those premium jobbers.

Uh, we, we use. coda.com to implement, uh, a parallel, uh, setup that actually runs on currently on one, uh, one big hener, uh, machine in Helsinki and uses coda.com so that you can run d Dev, um, and work on especially Drupal core issues very, very easily. It even, it has a thing that'll spin up the exact issue and then you're sitting in a, in a div, um, environment and you can do anything there that you would do locally.

Um, so it's, it's, it's essentially like having a local, uh, Linux d dev setup that is completely capable and that has prompting to set up so that you can work on Drupal core issues and it will have, uh, Drupal contribute, um, support in the future. It's an experiment. We don't know how to keep spammers out of it.

We don't know how to keep crypto miners out of it. We don't know how to offer it as a service. We don't know how to get it paid for. It only costs us at the, at its current situation, it costs us $50 a month. So the at, at its current usage level, we. We, the money is not the issue, but the control. We don't have any control.

We, but we welcome it. Maybe we shouldn't

Nic: aer, maybe we shouldn't advertise this because

Randy: I did a whole blog about it. So, you know,

Nic: let's, um, it's a great tool. We wanna promote it, but let's, let's get some crypto mining protection in first.

John: So it, you know, at its base right, it provides, it provides d dev in the cloud, right?

And I, I think you, you hit on something there when I talked, talked to you, uh, at DrupalCon. You had highlighted like, yeah, we got it out because we wanted to, um, you know, we wanted to be able to use it at DrupalCon for contribute. And, um, as Taryn said, you know, thank you for all the support during the first time contributor workshop.

Randy, like, uh, we know that, you know, d dev was, uh, you know, uh, very helpful tool in, in that effort as well. And, you know, I think the, the coder dot d dev.com and like having that cloud version of D Dev is like, I won't say it's an evolution 'cause it just feels like a another. Another, uh, you know, way to interact with D Dev, right?

Like, I, I, I, I don't think we're suggesting that everybody just go to the cloud. Like there is some benefit to running d Dev locally, but, um, this feels like a, a good, a good, um, you know, sub product or, or, or a good, a good alternative version for some folks.

Randy: I've used it for, um, you know, I could do d dev development there and be perfectly satisfied.

Um, as long as I have good internet. Of course, I was on the train coming back from Chicago, from DrupalCon in Chicago, and I did a significant amount of work just using that. There's a whole, you can, you can access the command line a whole bunch of different ways you can use VS code in it two different ways.

Um, I've been pretty satisfied with having it launch a local VS code that then uses the coder, uh, plugin, I guess is what they're called for extension on VS code. And lets me just do anything I want there. It's, it's a fully capable Linux, um, implementation of Docker and d Dev and of course I can use it for go development too.

So.

John: Hmm. Uh, wait, hold on a second. Did you, did you just say that there's a plugin for VS code that allows you to work on your local vs CLO vs code with the cloud version of DE?

Randy: That's right. That's right. And it's actually slick and fine. It's

John: rocket rod's not wrong.

Randy: There's actually, yeah.

Nic: I'm gonna get coder working inside of d dev and then connect that coder to VS code to connect to the upstream.

Randy: You don't have to do anything. If you use VS code, you open up the, yeah, the, uh, you open up the coder dot d dev.com and there's a little button that you push in, it launches it locally on your VS code and it does the coder extension for you.

It, uh, it's quite shocking.

Nic: Yeah. It's, it, I mean, I, I've seen the, I've used remote connections in the past, but more, um, more for editing, like a staging environment or something. Yeah. And, and testing stuff. But I mean, this seems useful. The, one of the nice things about this is it makes the, I I've seen people talk about using things like this for like pair programming, um, so that you can train more junior developers.

Like you're working on the same, you know, especially when you're remote, you're working on the same instance. If they. Get in a tight spot because they're running random commands. You can kind of back them out or show them how to get it set up and, and fix things. So, um, yeah, it seems, seems useful.

Randy: The, uh, the,

Rod: so this has

Randy: pair program

Rod: Serious implement

Randy: Go ahead.

Go ahead. Right.

Rod: Sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead.

Randy: The pair programming capability of coder, um, is actually there. And I, so I just made a note that I need to make an issue about that so that we explicitly implement that. Sorry, go ahead Rod.

Rod: No, I was just gonna say, I just spun it up 'cause I actually not tried this before and this is huge.

Um, I, I teach the five day immersion class for Acquia and, um, you know, two days of module development and a day of theming, um, you know, two days of site building and with a couple of clicks of a button, I'm there. In an environment that I don't need to have anybody install anything because it's all beginners.

It's pretty cool.

Nic: Yeah.

Rod: Well done.

Nic: I mean, well done. It, it, it, it's going the next level. 'cause I mean, I always said, um, I've always said like, that's what d dev is for me. 'cause it used to be like, like I, every time, Randy, you're making our lives easier. If you were trying to teach somebody how to do Drupal in the past, you'd be like, okay, first you have to install something to allow you to manage the version of PHP.

Then you have to install my SQL or MariaDB. Then you need to install and pm then you need to install blah, blah, blah. Then you need to edit your host file. Then you need to install a composer. Then you need to run. And then it's like, it's like eight hours to get an environment and then two days later be like.

I ran this command and it didn't work. It's like, well, that's because you're PHP 7.2 0.3, and I'm on PHP 7.2 0.5. Now we need to learn how to upgrade pH. And then, oh, but we dropped this extension. So DEI remember was like, oh, all you need to do is install Docker and d Dev. And then eventually you get to the point where, what's Docker?

You're like, but now, now you don't even need that. You're like, just go to this website and you have everything.

John: I actually don't, like, I don't know, I moved away from Docker when they changed their, uh, their kind of payment model. Right. And like, I, I'm using klima, which I think I, I think works great, but maybe, maybe I'm, I'm the only one or very limited, uh, limited group.

But yeah.

Randy: Let me, let me uh, clarify something you're saying there. Uh, you did not move away from Docker. You moved away from Docker desktop Fair to kma, which is actually using the open source version of Docker underneath it. And so we all thank the Docker organization for doing such an amazing, uh, such an amazing gift to everybody maintaining that whole infrastructure.

They do a great job with that. In fact, um, I don't actually ever recommend Docker desktop 'cause it tries to have so many features because of its, uh, because of its, uh, monetary requirements. But the fact is that organization is maintaining this enormously important open source ecosystem, which is what Colima is using, and Lima and Rancher Desktop and, uh, several other things.

So,

Nic: yep. Or you can just go to Linux and have native doctor support and it will be

Randy: fascinating, which is still using their stuff, which is great.

Nic: Yeah, it is.

Randy: It's great.

John: We're not going down that road, Nick, but

Randy: you can go down that way with coder dot d dev.com, and it's all Linux and it meets Nick requirements.

Rod: That's amazing.

Nic: Okay, rod, I think you get the next question.

Rod: Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm like, totally, I'm totally engrossed in this. He's, he's blown

John: away by d Dev in the cloud.

Rod: I didn't know where we're Oh, okay. Uh, well, we kind of already talked about it. Um, what problems does DD in the cloud aim to solve for teams in onboarding? I mean, that's. Kind of obvious, but Randy, give us the, give us the, you know, the answer on that one.

Randy: Yeah. So it

Rod: seems to be pretty amazing.

Randy: The real reason that we tried to get it going before DrupalCon was just that complexity that people have with onboarding.

Um, you, you bring people in, say, here you can be a first time Drupal contributor. And they have, they don't know what Docker is. They don't know what they don't know. All these, you know, all the things that Nick was saying. You have all that trouble and so you end up spending the whole day just, well, there's already too much to understand without having any of these things to understand.

And so just getting them a starting place is great. Um, that, so on the, on the Drupal onboarding thing, that's the ticket for, for team stuff, you know, we'd like to focus more on that and figure out how to. How to make this a sustainable solution that people could use in, in some of the ways that GI Pod was used.

So we'll see how that works in the future. We don't want to get too distracted, but it really is fun. So

John: I, uh,

Rod: this is a amazing training tool.

John: I think it's interesting that you, that you say that Randy, and that you just made that comment. Um, rod, 'cause um, I remember, and this is, I don't know, I wanna say like two or three years ago at this point, maybe longer, um, I was in a training at New England Drupal Camp and, uh, we were getting people going on, um, local environments and, um, I don't know.

I, I seem to think we were, we were working. Was

Nic: this Rod's training?

John: I don't, I don't, no, it wasn't

Nic: mine.

John: I don't think so. I, I don't think so. Um, and I, I, we, I seem to remember that we were using a, um, and I don't necessarily wanna say it was D Dev, it might have been, it might have been a competitor, but, um, they were basically trying to get it installed on a Windows machine and like we got it installed fine, but then the containerization side of things was not, like, not having it 'cause of permissions and all this other stuff.

And like exactly what you said, Randy, they were, they spent most, if not all day, just trying to figure out how to get a local environment set up and like being able to just point to D Devon in the cloud and be like, just go here and, and type in some info and it's gonna do it for you. Like, you know, it's a game changer and it's, it's, it is removing that roadblock for so many people.

Randy: I should mention that while, uh, windows. Was always a difficult place to work. Um, d Dev now has really quite exceptional support, uh, for Windows, um, in multiple ways. So we have, uh, the preferred way is using WSL two, and you can do that now without even having administrative access on your machine, which is Wow.

Amazing. Um, and, but we also support, uh, uh, traditional windows, we call it, or Native Windows, and it works fairly well, but the Windows file system is not great as, uh, we know for, for, um, web projects because Windows is built for one monstrous, uh, Microsoft Word file, and it does a great job with that. But it doesn't do great with 80,000 files the composer added.

So, but it, it, but D Dev does work. Quite shockingly well with, with all of the, you know, WSL two is a lovely environment and, uh, traditional Windows is tolerable these days with Rogen. So, uh, just just a side note that is actually something that we've spent quite a bit of time on in the last year was excellent Windows support.

So the only problem is, you know, like with contributor thing is that people come in with these lockdown machines where they're not even allowed to install software, and then you're, then, then you're really in, you know, and that's where, uh, that's where Goda dod dev.com can really, really shine.

John: So I wanna shift gears a little bit here, um, and dive more into, um, kind of building d dev, uh, the roadmap of d Dev.

We're gonna go, we're gonna get into kind of the, a little bit more of the nuts and bolts. Um, but first I kind, I, I wanna ask usta, um, you live, you live in Ukraine, obviously right now, you know, it's a, it's a war torn country, and I'm wondering how you kind of find motivation, find time, um, keep, keep, like, making such great contributions to the d dev project.

Like what does, what does that look like for you?

Stas: Yeah, it's, uh, quite, uh, difficult times nowadays. Uh, and, uh, I really find, uh, d Dev as, uh, one of the things that keep me going. Because, uh, I receive, uh, so much, uh, positive feedback, uh, from, uh, our users and, uh, helping people, uh, uh, also gives, uh, positive, uh, feedback, uh, on, uh, my mental state.

Uh, uh, if you talk about difficulties, uh, the most, uh, difficult thing in the recent months, uh, was, uh, uh, no electricity. Like, uh, several hours per day in winter. Yeah. And, uh, it was, uh, the most difficult winter in the last four years. But, uh, GI dev community helped me with this. Uh, and, uh, I have two echo flows that I use.

Uh, so I practically. Didn't have, uh, downtime in development. And, uh, also, uh, electricity is, uh, like, uh, our main, uh, source of, uh, anything like, uh, everything depends on this, like heating or hot water. As this year, right now I'm in the hoodie because, uh, just a week ago, uh, it was, uh, turned off he and hot water.

So it was early this year, just like, uh, the year before and the year before that. But, uh, well, we keep going and hope, uh, for the best.

John: What, what are you, what are you using for, uh, for internet Audi outta curiosity? Is it satellite? Is it.

Stas: It's, uh, fiber, uh, optical network. Uh, and, uh, uh, I switched to it, uh, in, uh, 2024.

And, uh, it was, uh, really, uh, like the best decision because even without, uh, electricity, I, uh, have internet and, uh, I use UPS for

Nic: mm-hmm.

Stas: Uh, so I don't have any downtime. And, uh, so it works quite well.

Nic: So somebody wanted to, you, you mentioned the community was able to help with some of these, um, devices.

What if the community wanted to provide more, what's the best way for them to, to do that? Is it through kind of like the GitHub donations? Is it, uh, is there another way to

Stas: Yeah. We have, uh, several ways, uh, to support the digital. Just, uh, you can go on giev.com and uh, at the top there is a banner. You can click it and, uh, there are several ways how you can support GI dev development.

So it can be either GitHub or PayPal, or invoice or a CH or like you name it.

Nic: So, shifting gears then back to, uh, DE, uh, directly, what, what are some of your top priorities on the roadmap right now, STAs, that you're kind of keeping an eye on? What, what are you looking to add to DE for the next, the next couple of versions?

Stas: Uh, yeah. My, um, top priority is, uh, to improve, um, our management for dot NV files. It's, uh, like, um, uh, you put all your configuration it, uh, in your dot NV. Maybe if you talk about, uh, Drupal, you use, uh, p

Nic: yeah,

Stas: file. But, uh, in most frameworks, uh, you use dot, nv file. And, uh, we have two ways, uh, to manage it like we have, uh, on, on this, uh, on application level environment variables.

And on the DW level, like when you go inside the, uh, your container web container, you can set, uh, all the environment variables. And, uh, it's the most important, uh, thing right now is, uh, to help users, uh, to decide what, uh, how, how we can manage it, uh, in the best way because, uh, it's not really always obvious because, uh, we have some files management, uh, for TNV files.

We manage some of them, but, uh, not all of them. And, uh, we don't always say that we change them. So it's, uh, quite, uh, we have several issues about it in the did a reship you and, uh, I would like to sort this out.

Nic: Okay. Actually, that reminded me of something, a question I had earlier that I, I, I forgot to ask.

Well, I'll ask now, you, Randy obviously came from, uh, the Drupal world, um, and, and started with d Dev. You mentioned you started with Laravel, right?

Stas: Yeah.

Nic: H how much Drupal do you know, because d dev has branched out from Drupal, but I feel like Drupal still is the primary developer base for, uh, d Dev. Uh, do you, do you sometimes spin up Drupal and, and scratch your head or.

Do you really only focus on DE and, and support individual communities?

Stas: No, I actually, uh, helped with, uh, several issues, uh, in some of the Drupal, uh, project. It was not, uh, core, but, uh, like I helped with, uh, Drupal CMS. Okay. And, uh, probably something else, uh, I can't remember right now. But, uh, like, it, it's not that hard, uh, to contribute.

Randy: Well, STAs uh, has, um, many things seem to be awfully easy for him. He will, he will. Somebody will come in to an add-on or Drupal core issue with some. Crazy difficult, weird thing. And of course, as you know, people at create issues don't necessarily describe them as well as they might. And STAs will go and reproduce it with an exact repro scenario, like in 20 minutes or something that is, and explain what's, what the issues are or the workarounds or what needs to be done, or if the user has a problem or if d dev has a problem or if the add-on has a problem and he'll like have that all sorted out in like 25 minutes or something.

Nic: Wow.

Randy: Which is amazing. Uh, so when he says it's easy, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

Nic: It's relative. Relative. Um, I, I will say that the, the piece that I contributed to d Dev, which was like the auto, auto installing add-ons, when you try to run them. Um, it, it was definitely a pleasure working with Stass on, on figuring that out.

You know, I found the collaboration to be similar to how Drupal does it, where there's discussion and exploration. We ended up back in the original solution, but it's always good to explore the bounds of the problem. Right. Um, yeah. Very, very different than most of my GitHub based contributions. Right. Um, so yeah, it's, it's great to have another project that's collaborative.

So

Randy: I should challenge your assumption about the Drupal centric nature of DDA. Of course. Um, DDA has been the official, uh, usage pattern for typo three for probably eight years, and for craft CMS for probably five years. And it goes, uh, there's a, there's a few other where it's the kind of official documented solution and then many, many, like Laravel and WordPress, where it is a, a very.

Common usage pattern. Yeah. Even though the, it may be, may not be in their docs, but a lot of people use it because, you know, like with WordPress or with Laravel, there are WordPress and Laravel centric solutions, which are actually quite good. Uh, WordPress has a, there's one called, it's, it's called, um, local, I think these days.

It's really, really very excellent. Has a very nice UI and everything, but it's only for WordPress and yeah, it's intended to monetize their hosting solution. And so if you want to use multiple hosting solutions, or you are a developer or an agency that works on multiple, uh, CMSs, like most do, you're in a lot better shape with D Div than you are with one of those.

Yeah.

Nic: And I mean, just spinning up d Dev is so easy compared to other things, but

Rod: really is. Yeah. Um, guys, are there any upcoming features that might significantly change how developers use D Dev?

Randy: I, I don't, I don't. We, we don't try to, uh, we've talked about this a little bit. We don't try to make people change. A lot of people still don't know that D of Share exists, you know? Um, so we, we, we try to make it, we try to make their patterns stay the same, but provide them new capabilities. And, uh, so probably the thing that's impacted people's capabilities most in the last year and continues to do so is the add-on pattern, which has really been great.

Uh, STAs did add-ons dot dw.com, which is a whole website that lets you search and understand what addons are available and try to sort out which ones are like anything. Uh, there's more than 200 now. There's uh, too many, you know, but it's pretty easy to sort them and figure out what's going on. It's not entirely easy yet to figure out which ones are quality and which ones are maintained.

Um, and we will probably have to address that in a more significant way and in the coming year.

Nic: And by the way, how did that. Sorry, go. Sorry about that. I was gonna say STAs, how did, uh, how was it working on the add-ons that dap, is that just kind of pulling in information automatically through the GI API or something, or,

Stas: yes, exactly.

I use GitHub, a PA and uh, API. And, uh, just, uh, make a list, uh, of add-ons, uh, with filters, uh, sorting of usual kind of stuff, search, just to make it easier to navigate because, uh, you obviously can use your terminal and, uh. Just to mention, we recently added, uh, auto completion, uh, inside your terminal. So you can run g Dev, add on, get, and press up on your keyboard, and, uh, it'll, uh, just pop up.

You resolve the list, uh, you can install, so you can search, uh, uh, in your terminal, but it's much easier on do it on web.

Nic: Okay. Yeah. Thank you for,

Rod: yeah, Randy, I was gonna say that I think, I think your answers to those two questions were probably the best they could have been. Um, you're obviously, you know your customers, you wanna please your customers, you wanna do what's best for them.

Yeah, a fantastic answer.

John: So I will, I will edit Rod's phrasing a little bit. I think, I think I gotta say that they're users 'cause they're not really paying for, for D Dev, right. D dev is a, is a free, is a free tool, air quotes, free tool that, um, you know, people can, can use for their development. Um, obviously we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, being able to sustain D Dev and, and, um, you know, the kind of funding goals D Dev has, uh, there is a link in the show notes to a blog post where you can learn more about that.

Um, but Randy, I'm curious, um, and I have my own impression of this, but I want to hear it from you. Um, how would you describe the current health of, of the ddo project and its, its community

Randy: We sure love. What an amazing community we have. Um, it, I, I'm, I, I have notes for a, for a blog post about how much we love this wonderful community, but really the.

The essence of why DA is good is the community's contribution and the community stepping up and asking for things. And in so many ways, we don't drive a, uh, roadmap. I mean, we, we have a roadmap, but we don't drive a roadmap as much as we love to hear from users about their experience. And that is, it really is great.

And we, and so we love to hear from people in all of the channels and in Slack on Drupal in, in our, in our discord, um, in the issue queue. And that just, so I think, I think we're very well in, in our, um, in our annual summary of the plans for the year. We always note risks, um, and, um, we want to make sure that d Dev.

Goes on into the future to, uh, sustain people's good use of it where they're at. And of course, both STAs and I have risks. I'm quite old, and STAs is in the middle of a war torn country. And those are not trivial risks. You know, they're, um, uh, so we, uh, financially we really want d to become a sustainable entity, uh, so that we have those.

Um, those things taken care of in the future. Both STAs and I work full-time, full-time on this stuff, and that's why you get the kind of responsiveness that you get for all these things and, um, that as a long-term thing needs to be maintained and there's a financial component to that. And so we, we certainly encourage every, every organization and every individual that's using DA to step up and recognize that need so that we can reach those goals.

I've been really pleased. One of the things we did last year was, and, and there's a whole story behind this. Um, the, the drop times asked us for, um, uh, better information about what our funding situation was and. We ended up building a whole capability to provide that as a feed. And then they made that into a beautiful banner.

And then we got to use that as a beautiful banner, and then we implemented that into d dev start, so that once a day you get to find out what the, what the funding situation is and the goal and that communication with our actual users at a pretty modest level, I think has been really, really good. We probably had thought in the past that what would happen with the funding is that we needed, uh, two or three sugar daddy agencies to step up and, um, fund us, right?

And it's like it never, never really much happened. In fact, they come and they go. So the fact that the entire community now is invested and informed about the actual funding goal and situation. I think is, I, I'm really happy with that and a lot of us, uh, I hear from people that they love to see it inch up, uh, in that daily notification.

Um, and um, of course, you know, we, we continue to encourage everybody that benefits from D Dev to be invested in it financially and in all the other ways. Um, we're really happy with our communities and the whole, we're very optimistic about our situation.

John: Hey Nick, you're uh, muted there on

Nic: Thank you

John: unchecked.

Nic: So we, we, we have a couple questions from Get Pantheon sta. So I, I'd like to start with you on this one. Uh, 'cause this is pretty poignant in the Drupal community right now. Um, there's been a lot of publicity on the pressure that generative AI pull requests are, you know, putting on maintainers, especially on GitHub.

Um. Do you have any specific asks of the broader kind of ecosystem or people submitting these and how to kind of help balance out the, the pressures that are coming from generative kind of mass pull requests or, or is that something that D Dev hasn't had to deal with yet?

Randy: We, we actually wrote about it in our, um, in our, uh, newsletter like last week or the week before.

Um, and, uh, we are, we are probably going to ask people to, um, start with an issue rather than just creating a PR so that there can be discussion before effort is applied. Uh, but one of the things that I've noticed after writing that in the newsletter. Um, is that I'm at least half the problem because I can use AI to solve a problem that I previously would've had to, that I might not have approached.

And then I create all these problems and my prs, you know, because they're big and they have to be tested and we all have to look at them. So I'm, uh, it's not, it's not just contributors like from all over the web. It's, it's all of us are suddenly able to do things that involve more code than they used to use, that used to involve, um, that require more review.

And somehow we have to, uh, slow that down a bit. Um. Figure out, uh, we, we need to get more, um, reviewers invested in reviewing in the D of, uh, PRQ. So we're trying to work on that. Um, so we encourage that of everybody. Um, I'm not very happy with AI reviews. Um, I mean, I, I, I think the AI reviews are great, but AI reviews in the issue queue with all that wall of text are discouraging and hard to read and not, and often not as useful as they could be, even though sometimes they point out, uh, real issues, but you can't, you know, it's got all this stuff and you can't really sort it out.

So yes, we are definitely struggling with that and yes, it impacts all of us and no, it is not all bad, you know? Um. Uh, things are getting done that couldn't be done otherwise, which is amazing. But the, the impact on maintainers is very real and we need to spread that load to the, you know, to more maintainers.

So

Nic: how, how about you STAs? Do you wanna add anything?

Stas: Uh, yeah, it's, uh, the problem and, uh, we are going to deal with this more and more in the next few years coming on, but, uh, I hope, uh, we are going to find, uh, a solution for this, uh, since, uh, like we can't hide, uh, from AI and, uh, well it's, uh, hard to consume all of this, uh, AI produced stuff.

But, uh, if we, uh, have some way, uh, to make it, uh, streamlined, uh, into some, mm-hmm. Like, uh, not huge contributions, but maybe small ones. It, uh, can become easier and, uh, I hope, uh, we can do something about it.

Nic: Yeah, so Me too. Go ahead.

John: So yeah, so there's a, there's a follow up there from, from Get Pantheon and, and the gist of the question is, you know, a lot of developers are using AI coding agents, um, as part of their daily workflow.

How do you guys see D E's role kind of evolving and then especially where agents kind of need context as to hosting platforms and things like that? Any plans to, I don't know, integrate d dev more heavily into certain AI agents? Um, STAA you got, you got any, any features on the roadmap that, uh, that answered that question?

Stas: Have we actually planned, uh. For 2026, uh, to work on, uh, some d dev MCP. Uh, but, uh, right now we, uh, we are not working on it, but we may come back, uh, and, uh, explore it more. You know, this ai, you don't know what is going to happen the next day. Like, uh, today you have one, uh, uh, agent, uh, on the top of everyone else.

Uh, like, uh, you know, people talk about clo uh, like it was the top one just, uh, like a month ago. And try now it, uh, can show some slow results, so like, people are not so happy with it. And, uh, but no, we, we will see where it, where it goes.

Randy: There are like so many d Dev Claude add-ons. I've, I've noticed that.

Ridiculous. So that may be a, uh, that may be the, the add-on shakeout may be our path. Anyway, go ahead Nick.

Nic: Uh, yeah, I was gonna say, so I, I've been, I've been pretty vocal about my skepticism about the, the value of AI in a collaborative na a collaborative projects, right? Like I, I think from a core, from core perspective, it really only just adds pressure.

It doesn't, it doesn't solve like it, it can solve certain edge cases, but with the level of review required, all it does is add to the burden, right? But we do still need to test ai. And one of the problems that I have is. And I'll be brief because I know we're running up against it, but one of the problems I have is that I have a wide variety of clients and they all have different rules about AI and they all have different rules about security.

So I'll say one thing that's really nice about d Dev is in the add-ons is when I put Claude in an add-on in d Dev, it only has access to that particular code base that that client approved for. And I don't have to worry about, uh, I don't have to worry about it leaking into another project and then having a, a hard discussion with the client.

Um, so, uh, we, yeah, so I, I think we have to, I think we have to move to wrap up though, but I just wanna let you guys know that, um, ev even skeptics for ai d dev is, is helpful

Rod: guys. How can, how can developers like Drupal developers or anybody, um, contribute or get involved with DE That's pretty much the.

That kind of, this is a roundup question, how do we get involved?

Randy: Yeah. We love to have people, uh, uh, contribute, ask questions anywhere. The, for Drupal folks, the DE channel is all always there. We love to hear from you there. Um, we, we have a discord that we actually prefer for you to land in because it benefits more people than just Drupal.

But we're happy to see you everywhere. And of course, the, the many issue cues in the DW ecosystem are all there waiting. And we would love to, uh, hear from you there. And of course, as we said, uh, this is a community project that ne deserves a future in general. And so getting your organization or yourself personally involved financially is a very welcome thing to do.

John: Well, Randy and Stoss, thank you for joining us and, uh, giving us an update on d Dev.

Randy: Okay,

Stas: thank you.

Nic: Do you have questions or feedback? You can reach out to talking Drupal on the socials with the handle Talking Drupal or by email or [email protected]. You can connect with the host and other listeners on the Drupal Slack in the Talking Drupal channel.

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John: Okay, Randy, if folks wanted to get ahold of you, talk about d dev or bike packing, uh, where could they go about doing that?

Randy: I'm rfa, RFAY in almost all the places including, uh, uh, Drupal Slack. Um, and, and of course dd.com. Uh, you can click the, uh, click the contact button there.

John: Awesome. STAs, what about you?

Stas: Yeah, I am, uh, on the same, uh, channel. Uh, this, uh, Randy says that Slack and, uh, at discord at, uh, S-D-A-S-A-V-E.

And, uh, yeah, you can find my, uh,

John: great rod.

Rod: I'm Rod Martin, pretty much every social, including Drupal Slack, and you can reach out to [email protected] as well.

John: Awesome, Nick.

Nic: You can find me pretty much everywhere at Nicks man, N-I-C-X-V-A-N.

John: And I'm John Pzi. You can find me streaming live, uh, on talking Drupal at 11:45 AM Eastern on, uh, YouTube and LinkedIn.

Um, you can also find me [email protected]. Uh, you can find me on the socials or drupal.org at John Zi, and you can find out more about eam [email protected].

Nic: And if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking to you guys next week.

John: Thanks a lot.

Martin: Thanks. Thank you.