Talking Drupal #541 - Mautic

Nic: This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design development from a group of people with one thing in common.

We love Drupal. This is episode 541 Mautic. On today's show, we're talking about Mautic marketing automation and its history with Drupal, with our guest, Ruth Cheley. We'll also cover Mautic ECA as our module of the week. Welcome to Talking Drupal. Our guest today is Ruth. Ruth is an open source advocate with 20 years of experience using and contributing.

Having built a full service digital agency, she now works as Project Lead for Mautic, supporting the community who build and maintain the world's first open source marketing automation platform. Ruth is a lover of Kaz, a Keen triathlete, indis, but not at the same time, and is based in the east of England.

Ruth Blast joined us in episode 343 all the way back in 2022. Welcome back to the show, and thank you for joining us.

Ruth: Thank you.

Nic: I'm mcl founder at Enlightened Development Today. My co-host are Catherine Bu backend developer and architect at Minecraft. Welcome back.

Catherine: Thank you.

Nic: And joining us as usual, John Picozzi, solution architect at eam.

Welcome back.

John: Hello everyone. And just a shameless plug, if you happen to be going to DrupalCon Chicago community Summit is happening on Monday. The believe it's the 23rd. I should have my dates. It is the 23rd. It's an all day community summit. We have a great slate of schedule planned with fireside chats with some notable Drupal Association members.

Some talks from some community members panel discussions. So if you are going to DrupalCon Chicago and you're going to be there on Monday, make sure you sign up for the Community Summit.

Nic: And now to talk about our module of the week, let's turn it over to Martin Anderson_Clutz includes a principal solutions engineer at Acquia and a maintainer of a number of Drupal modules and recipes of his own.

Martin, what do you have for us this week?

Martin: Thanks Nick. Have you ever wanted to integrate Mautic Marketing Automation into your Drupal website using ECA? There's a module for that. It's called Mautic ECA and it was created in June of 2025 by Abec Maar of drop Solid. It currently has a 1.0 0.6 version, which works with Drupal 10 and 11.

It is actively maintained and for documentation, has a pretty detailed readme. Now the project does have one open issue currently, which is not a bug, and it is officially in use by three sites according to Drupal blood org. Now with the module installed, your ECA models can respond to Mautic web hooks and can also make use of new actions to give you CRUD capabilities.

So that's create, read, update, or delete for contacts and segments of your Mautic data within ECA. Now Mautic ECA declares the Mautic API module as a dependency. And you need to use it to set up an API connection and to define any web hooks that you want to use in your models. It's worth noting that the maintainers of Mautic ECA also seem to be involved with a number of other modules in the mod API ecosystem, including Mautic personalization as well as Mautic content provider, which can expose Drupal content for use in Mautic for example, to include in emails.

So let's talk about Mautic ECA.

Nic: I mean, ECA is great from what I remember last time we talked about Mautic and what I hope to hear today, Monica, is great. I mean, it seems like an awesome connection.

John: Yeah, I mean I think this makes a lot of sense. It allows for a lot of, a lot of that ECA kind of customization to happen talk kind of, kind of lends itself to that orchestration, the idea of ate orchestration that we talked about with Jurgen a couple weeks ago.

And I'm wondering here this is specifically for ECA, it would, as it would appear, so I'm assuming, you know, the, the Mautic other Mautic integration modules that exist are probably just to kind of send information to Mautic and not so much use those, those actions and web hooks in ECA. Is that, is that a fair assessment?

Martin: Yeah, the, when I was looking through sort of the Drupal modules that are integrated with Mautic it seemed like the most popular one was specifically for sort of Mautic with web forms. So the idea being that when somebody fills out a web form, you can push that content into your Mautic data and then that person can either be updated as an existing contact or created as new contact.

But I thought this was a little interesting because it allows you to potentially do some more sophisticated things. Obviously making full use of, you know, all of the capabilities that are built into ECA.

John: One thing that that comes to mind and, i'm actually having this similar conversation about this with a, with a client right now, but like logging in, once you create a user account, being able to push some of that account information into Mautic as like, Hey, this person exists as a, as a customer now and they have this role and this is like how we should, how we should kind of personalize and market to them.

That definitely makes, makes a lot of sense. And this would, this would definitely help with that. So I can definitely see a a, a use use case there. And I actually just realized I used the word definitely like three times in that one sentence. Hmm,

Nic: you definitely did.

John: Ah, I see what you did there.

Nic: Well, thank you Martin, as always. You found an on topic module of the week. I, I th the thing is when I see ECA integrations like this, it what make inspires me to just install ECA and everything and connect everything. And I have to like. I remind myself that I need the use case from the client before I start just including all these.

But it really brings me back to my early, the early days in Drupal. I was just kind of point and clicking everything in and it, it really makes me wanna it makes me wanna find a, a use case for this so I can kind of tinker with it. But if you, if you use a CA and you use Mautic it sounds like a perfect way to, to pull them in.

Martin: Yeah. I've heard somebody refer to ECA as like the new views in Drupal, and it wouldn't surprise me if in a similar way, at some point we have a, at least a simple version of ECA kind of built into court to some degree. Same way that we have Token as a thing that is now, you know, in core, but augmented in Contri as an example.

Nic: Yeah. Yeah, it's like, or, or maybe it's a new way of handling kind of actions that are kind of a core thing, because actions historically have needed a little bit of love for a while. So maybe some sort of core framework of ECA that just provides the underlying API and, and that's the direction the core is going, right, is removing a lot of the direct implementations of things like the contact module, and then spending more time beefing up the underlying API stuff and relying on like you know, triple CMS to pull the recipes in to pull everything together, which I, I mean, we're still in the early stages.

It's only been a year or so that we've been doing that, but it seems like a much more maintainable way moving forward. And, and maybe this is the next step of that.

Catherine: We were talking about documentation earlier, and I'm wondering if there's, from what you've seen, good documentation on this module. One of the things I've run into with ECA is a lack of it.

Nic: Really?

Martin: So I, yeah, we'll,

Catherine: I, I mean, I could look, I could be looking in the wrong place, right? Yeah. Let's not, let's not, it could exist and I just, you know,

Martin: so I think there's, there's two things to mention. So number one, there is actually a full documentation site specifically for a CA, including a lot of examples that you can sort of browse through and download and pull them into like a test site or something like that.

So if you wanna see what best practices look like, there actually is quite a good volume of reference material there. But also one of the things that's amazing about ECA is sort of the community support there. So there's an EC, a channel on Drupal Slack, and if you go in there, ask a question, sometimes even a seemingly maybe obvious answer that you're looking for there are people in there that sometimes Jurgen himself that will jump in and, and help you out.

So,

Nic: yeah, I will say you, you're gonna spend an inordinate amount of time making sure everything is documented. But one of the things that he's, he continues to struggle with, I think, is how to properly. Promote that documentation, right, and, and continually improve it. So yeah, maybe, maybe we can put that in the show notes and maybe you can take a quick look at it and see if it kind of provides what you're looking for.

'cause I, I know he spent a lot, a lot of time putting together a library of stuff and, and I know it's a discussion for the next version on if there's a way to kind of start pulling together these types of examples in a cleaner way to make it easier for the community to contribute. Because I think right now a lot of it's, he's, he's doing a lot of that work himself,

John: so.

Nic: Alright. Thank you Martin. As always, another on topic module of the week. If listeners wanted to suggest the module of the week or disconnect and discuss something we've talked about, what's the best way for them to do that?

Martin: We're always happy to talk about candidates for module of the week in the talking Drupal channel of Drupal Slack.

Or folks can reach out to me directly as man clue on all of the Drupal and social channels.

See you next week.

Nic: I was muted. When I say goodbye, didn't I, wasn't I okay. So welcome welcome back, Ruth. It's been as, as I mentioned in the show opening, it's been a four years-ish since you came on last time. Can you give our listeners kind of a brief overview of what is, and kind of how it differentiates itself from other kind of marketing automation tools out there?

Ruth: Yeah, for sure. And yeah, thanks for having me back. I think it was 2022, wasn't it? And how time has changed, how things have changed since then? Gosh. So yeah, Mort Tech is an open source marketing automation platform. If you're not too familiar, you might know some of the proprietary tools like Marketo or HubSpot Marketing, Salesforce Marketing Cloud, that kind of area.

It allows you to do email marketing, campaign management, lead nurturing account based management, marketing, analytics, all that jazz. And in terms of core differentiation, I guess the main thing is with Mort, you can completely self-host on your own infrastructure, managing your own data on your own physical servers or in your own cloud or whatever you want, really.

So you control where your data lives and where it goes. You are not locked into a vendor and a particular infrastructure. If you were hosting with a particular MultiTech partner, then you could move your MultiTech to another partner because there's other, there's the ability to ex export all of your data and have that portability.

And of course, like Drupal being open source, having a rest, API. Having an ecosystem around Mor it means it is truly extensible. So you can modify mor extend it, you can integrate whatever you need to integrate however you need to. And you also benefit from the innovation that comes from the community. So people are doing really cool stuff and a lot of the time they contribute that cool stuff back to core and it gets merged into our releases.

So that's another thing that you don't always get with a proprietary tool because you have to wait for their roadmap and you have to, and sometimes they might not even do what you need them to do for your, your solution. So those are the main things that I see as differentiating from other tools.

John: Two, two questions. One cool. I imagine that a lot of, like nonprofits probably use MO because, like, it alleviates them of that kind of like subscription cost to those bigger services and the, and the data is more,

Ruth: mm-hmm.

John: Self-contained. Is that, is that accurate?

Ruth: Yeah, I think there are quite a lot of nonprofits.

O obviously it's not completely free because you still have to host it.

John: Sure.

Ruth: And you need to have the infrastructure chops to host it if you start to scale. Mm-hmm. So it's great to several million contacts and depending on how much you are sending, you'll be fine on a reasonably beefy VPS, but once you start to get bigger, you do need to have that skills and expertise.

But yeah, we do see a lot of small organizations, solopreneurs, people who are just starting up in business who just don't have the available revenue yet to pay for these big tools. But they do have the time or they do have the knowledge and the infrastructure internally to spin it up. And we've had businesses that have gr literally grown because of the fact that they had access to that technology, which wouldn't have been possible.

John: And then my other thought and slash question was personalization. Does Mautic do, do personalization?

Ruth: Yeah, it does. So we have various different ways you can do personalization. If you're using Drupal or Typo three or Jum or anything like that, you are probably gonna be interested in personalizing the experience on the website.

Mm-hmm. So in that regard, you can do that with dynamic web content we call it. And that means that for. General people, people you don't know or people you're not personalizing for. They'll see the default content, which might be sign up to our newsletter.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Ruth: But if they're already on the newsletter, you replace that with a different call to action that's relevant to what you know about that person.

And that's done with dynamic content.

Catherine: Mm-hmm. We

Ruth: can also do the same kind of thing in emails. So you'd send one email and maybe use a different header image for different world regions, or you would use different content based on what products they're interested in or how warm they are in your sales funnel.

You can configure that entirely for your own needs. But we also have things like AB testing and multilingual as well. So there's a whole load of stuff there that you can use for, for personalization. It just depends on what your strategy is for, for, for making use of that really

John: makes sense. So,

Ruth: yeah.

John: We're, we're obviously a Drupal podcast and, and listeners right now might be like are we gonna spend all show talking about marketing automation? But Mautic and, and Drupal kind of have a, a little bit of history. I'm wondering if you can, you can kind of tell us a little bit about that history and the, and the relationship Mautic has with the Drupal community.

Ruth: Yeah. So there's been a Drupal integration really since we started having integrations. I can remember really early on having conversations with the founder before he'd launched Motech. And he was asking me as a marketer, like, what's important for you in a marketing system? And I said, it has to integrate with all the tools I use and if it doesn't, then I won't use it because it, you end up with silos.

So we've had a Drupal integration for a long time. We have a lot more now because people use Drupal in different ways. So they integrate multi in different ways. 19 Mor Inc. Which is the hosting company the founder created in order to provide enterprise SaaS to really fund this open source project mm-hmm.

That was acquired by Acquia. So that relationship between Mor and Acquia became a lot stronger and Mor and Drupal through that. So they acquired Mor Inc. They also acquired the brand and the trademarks and basically the whole community and the open source project. And we were incubated with Acquia for quite some time, actually four years.

And they really supported MarTech to become, become an open source project because at that point we were really sort of getting stuff over the fence from Walter Kink. There was no kind of community structure or governance. There was no way for Contribu to step up and leave releases, for example. So. That support from DRE and from the team at Acquia was just fundamental, really to motech getting up and running and really being able to leverage the open source community.

And we spun out from them in 2023 and became a completely independent open source project. So they gave us seed funding for a little while to help us get set up, to set up our membership model and our governance model as an independent project. And that was two years, two and a bit years ago. So that's where we are now.

We still have really strong relationship with the Drupal community. We've got several Drupal agencies who are providing Mort and enterprise capacity as well alongside Drupal obviously. So

Catherine: that's interesting. You've worked very closely with Drupal, but how can just, you know, normal Drupal users actually integrate multi into their workflow.

What benefits do they get from that?

Ruth: So I think increasingly what we are seeing is organizations when they're looking to buy Drew buy services, they're not just thinking about their website when they're looking at what they need. They're looking a bit wider than that. And, and what goes into my website?

Well, I have, you know, forms and newsletters and stuff, and I need to know what people are doing. And I need, if you want personalization, I need a system that can do that too. So that's what we're kind of seeing adds more benefit in terms of triple users. Also, Mort is built on Symphony as well, so there's a lot of transferable skills there in terms of developer knowledge.

You have to obviously learn the mor isms, but the underlying framework is the same. We're on, we just released MOR seven, which is simply 7.4. So yeah, enabling Drupal users to. Broaden what they're able to provide if they're an agency, for example, but also if you're running in-house, to be able to then extend what you can do by like bringing content from Drupal into the MOR and using that to do your newsletters, like some of the case studies we've got.

Nic: Hmm. And you also obviously the idea behind marketing automation is help increase revenue and adoption and certain goals like that. Mm-hmm. So what are some practical use cases where you've seen kind of drive that real business growth for people using it? Aside from kind of the privacy concerns and ownership of data and that kind of stuff.

If somebody's just looking for marketing automation tool, what, what's the what's be, what does provide to them?

Ruth: I think one of, one of the important aspects is the lead nurturing, so being able to understand what someone's interests are as they're moving through the process of getting to know your company, understanding what services or what products they're interested in, and then also based on the behavior, how likely, how warm are they?

How likely are they to convert, and at what point would you start to send different communications and messaging to them, or even, for example, highlight it to a salesperson to say, this person is showing signs that they're ready to convert. So that can help. With your revenue generation because it's a more efficient use of your time, you send it to the right salesperson.

So like I did a mor instance for a fire, fire extinguishers company, and they did like agricultural fire extinguishers as well as boats and home and cars and like, you need to send those to the right salesperson. And initially they were just sending to whoever, but when we implemented more ticket meant that they could say, oh, this person's generally interested in agriculture.

Let's fast track them to the agriculture salesperson once they get to a certain point in their journey where we're pretty sure they're gonna convert. So it, it improved their business workflows as well as making it more making the communication to the user much more streamlined and much more relevant to that interest by using the agricultural products in the communications.

So.

Nic: So this is now gonna be a fire science podcast episode because I'm curious why, why is agricultural different? Is it, is it 'cause of the silos or the chemicals? Like do you know,

Ruth: I dunno, all of the,

Nic: I'm so

Ruth: curious the scale and also the kind of, the kind of systems that they're looking at and the kind of interests that people have and the case studies you'd be presenting and

Nic: Yeah.

Ruth: The, the length of the journey of a, a customer from initial interest to, to purchasing. But that's definitely something that we see a lot of is lead nurturing.

Nic: Yeah, that, that's a great point actually. 'cause you, you know. We've all done vendor search searches before for clients, right? Where you start talking to somebody and you're like, okay, we have these particular requirements.

Like an, an easy one might be HIPAA compliance or PCI compliance or something like that. Mm-hmm. The customer's like, yes, we do that. Oh, sorry. Vendor's. Like, yes, we do that. And then you start talking like, okay, well what about this edge case? And it's just obvious that they have no idea what they're talking about.

You're like, well. Maybe like you're saying you do it, but you don't know what HIPAA stands for, so maybe you don't. Yeah. And so being able to put the person, and maybe they do, maybe they, you're just talking to the wrong sales engineer or something.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah.

Nic: So, so being able to kind of funnel people to the correct, to the people most knowledgeable about the particular product.

Mm-hmm. I, I can see how valuable, valuable that would

Ruth: be. And, and things like event marketing, so like communication before events, registration. I even just had a, a LinkedIn conversation with someone who did their entire wedding invitations process through Mort automating it all. Like if people hadn't RSVP, automating the responses, sending them a text message if they hadn't got the email,

John: Hey, friendly reminder chicken or steak.

Ruth: I was like, wow, what a great exer example of how you can use, you could use mort. So yeah, like communication like that and automating the follow up. Automating through the right channel, like if you've got a meeting booked with someone, you might actually wanna send them an SMS as well as an email, for example, and Mort's multi-channel, so it can support lots of different channels.

You could do WhatsApp through some of the third party integrations, fiber, telegram. Yeah. All those things.

John: So is it fair to say like Mautic is to marketing automation as Drupal is to yet content and webpage management?

Ruth: Possibly, I might need a little bit more context on

John: that. Yeah, I, I kinda left you, left you out there.

But like, I, I mean, I'm just seeing like Mautic as highly integratable, highly customizable, you know, able to manage a lot of maybe more complex marketing flows and, and personalization. Right? And like when I look at Drupal, I kind of look at Drupal in the same, same way. Highly customizable, highly integratable, capable of handling not only your web content, but pushing things out to things like, and other systems to kind of like provide that kind of connective tissue.

Ruth: Yeah, absolutely. And, and Mort can be integrated with tools like NA 10 or active pieces and things like that. Mm-hmm. Which also then completely explodes what you can do as like a, a non-technical person. Yeah. There's a lot of the time working with the API, you think, oh, that's like, you know, got, gotta be deep in the weeds with development.

But being able to use tools like that in the no-code setting, you can, it really expands what you can do with the marketing automation tool.

John: Question about that. So a couple weeks ago, as I, as I said earlier, we had Jurgen on talking about orchestration in Drupal and Drupal orchestration kind of just came onto the scene relative relatively relatively new.

Right? Of course we've had ECA, but like now there's a formal orchestration module and, and kind of work going on there. I'm curious, where is in their orchestration journey? Like, is this something that you guys started like a year ago? Is this something that's just just come to the forefront?

Like where, where do you, where do you guys sit on that timeline, do you think?

Ruth: Well, campaign orchestration is something that has been in Mort since day one. So you can build really complex all really simple campaigns that push out into third party integrations that listen for replies and all of that.

That's been a core part of MultiTech. Its the engine of MultiTech really, that drives all of the automation.

John: Right?

Ruth: So we've had that since day one. Really. We've had. Different of that over time. And what we're working on at the moment, for example, is creating a library of campaign templates that people can just click and install and then have like a double opt-in campaign ready to go, or a birthday celebration ready to go.

Got it. To make it easier for users to do that kind of orchestration.

John: So it, that's interesting. So I guess, I guess the DNA of Mautic made it a little bit easier to integrate into some of those automation services and provide those hooks. Mm-hmm. And provide the back and forth, huh? Okay.

Ruth: Yeah. Yeah.

'cause we already use event subscribers and stuff. We've got all of that architecture within Motech. So yeah. Yeah, it was fairly easy. It's just interesting. Yeah. Setting up the integrations with those tools and 'cause we've got such a passionate community, as soon as you even think about that tool, there's probably a mor module there already.

You know, there's a mort node that's quite well supported. There's an active pieces that's quite well supported. So,

John: so I wanted to, I wanted to go back to something Nick. Nick mentioned a little bit around data privacy and compliance and

Ruth: Yeah. You

John: know, obviously Mautic is, is kind of self-hosted. You can set up your own, your own Mautic instance.

Yeah. But I'm wondering like, in general, how does Mautic handle data privacy and compliance, especially with regulations like GDPR?

Ruth: Yeah, so we have been set up from the start really to allow you to do things like anonymization of the IP within the interface to comply with GDPR, if that's important to you.

So those settings are actually there within Nortech itself. We also have various cleanup tools that allow you to, like, to comply with GDPR. You need to get rid of data that's no longer relevant for you to hold. We've got tools that do that for you at the command line. We've got tools that anonymize the MaxMind data, for example, to comply with CCPA,

John: and

Ruth: you just run those as a regular cleanup job within your, your instance.

So we have all of that sort of built in. The thing with. Any marketing tool that you use is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the drink. Sure. Like we, we can set up Mor to be as secure as possible. We can set it up to have these tools that you need to run, but it's ultimately down to the user to make sure a, they're doing things properly.

Like they are actually doing a have you. Have you given us consent to contact you? They are recons, consenting their lists regularly. Yeah. So from our side, that's like an educational thing. Mm-hmm. That, that we try to encourage people to do. But also managing things like deletion requests and stuff that's practically easy to do within Nortech.

But the user of Mort needs to do that. And we have things like do not contact flags where if someone says they don't wanna receive contact from you on the email channel, then it won't send a contact unless it's a transactional Must get through email. Like a password reset or Sure. An account informational email.

And that's applicable to SMS as well. So we have a, you could unsubscribe from SMS, you could unsubscribe from email, et cetera. Every channel has that.

John: So I, I actually wanna go back a couple of, couple of questions and, mm-hmm. Well, I guess it not that far because at the be top of this question, I mentioned that Mautic is, is self-hosted, mm-hmm.

I'm wondering, are there hosting providers that provide Mautic specific hosting?

Ruth: Yes, there are a lot. So we actually, if you go on our website, we have a hosting partners directory.

John: Ah, okay.

Ruth: And the people who we list there are members of Nortech. So you have to be financially contributing to Nortech to be listed in our hosting Partners directory.

And so they're from all over the world. Okay. We have hosting providers from all over the world. We also have the managed Mort hosting, which is the official managed hosting.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Ruth: We run a 14 day trial where people can just kind of log in and kick the tires and try mort with lots of guardrails.

So you can't use the API, you can't still plug ins, you can only send emails themself. That's mainly to stop people spamming. Yeah. And then if they continue with the hosted account, we get 40% of the revenue from that. So,

John: sorry. So,

Sorry, so that hosted account, is that like a set version of Mautic or do they have the ability to, is it like a SaaS or is it, do they have the ability to customize it?

Ruth: So if you pay for the managed mor hosting, then yeah, it's a SaaS provision, but you do get to be able to do the API and the plugins and once you pay it's just in the free trial setting. We have it quite a tight sandbox because it's obviously something sending emails is something that people like to do for malicious reasons, so we have to be a bit careful with that.

So but yes, it's a fully, fully featured and we make sure that that's actually a vanilla mor when you're doing the trials, there's no sort of corporate branding in it. It's just mor as if you were taking it off the shelf and installed it yourself. Hmm. So

Nic: related to that, I'm, I'm actually curious, like what kind of I mean obviously the more users you have, the more emails you're sending, the more personalization, the, the heavier the requirements.

But I, I'm curious for what kind of server specifications are you looking at if you're gonna self-host? Because the clients that I have that are interested in it do a fair amount. But they're also realistic about their budgets. Like is it, is it something that if it was a very small organization that maybe sends a monthly newsletter they could set up on like a, you know, a digital ocean droplet?

Or is that like

Ruth: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Nic: Okay. So,

Ruth: For sure the, yeah, what you need to be aware of. It's not so much how many contacts you have, it's what you do with those contacts. Because with Mort, because we're tracking things like the email opens and the clicks on the emails and the land people landing on your resources, when you do a blast, you get that incoming traffic.

So that's often when, where people find the, the challenge on the infrastructure side is queuing that incoming traffic as you start to scale. So you do obviously need to have enough space and enough ram and what have you to be able to process the scale of emails that you are sending. But most people will start off with a, a reasonably cheap digital ocean droplet or AWS or whatever.

And then as they start to scale, then, then look at scaling it up.

Nic: Okay. So, so similar to a system like Omo, right? If you have

Ruth: Yeah.

Nic: E except you have more burst, it sounds like you have more burst traffic because like you said, when you send an email, most people open it within the first five minutes, 10 minutes.

Ruth: Uhhuh.

Nic: Okay.

Ruth: Yeah.

Nic: Good to know.

Ruth: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's those, it's those periods where you tend to have more, as you scale, you tend to have to think more about performance and, and infrastructure and things like that.

Nic: Okay. And then your, I assume partners, you have partners that can help with support or something like that.

If they wanna, if the client wants to self-host for GDPR reasons, but they need assistance with how to optimize something, you have partners that can help

Ruth: advise. Yeah, absolutely. On the hosting partners director, you can search by, I think it's called Bring your Own Mor. And that is where you have your mort and they help you with supporting and installing, configuring, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Nic: Very

Catherine: cool. That's cool. I wanna go back to personalization, because that's a big one. Mm-hmm. That a lot of people are interested in. And what types of the advanced segmentation or targeting can mar-tech do? Excuse me. But I'm particularly interested in like things that your competitors maybe struggle with.

Ruth: Yeah, I mean, we do all of the basic stuff, like what pages on the website have they visited, what resources have they downloaded, have, how have they emailed, how have they engaged with your, your emails or SMSs, like have they opened them? Have they clicked on them? All of that kind of stuff you can do out of the box.

And we can also do segmentation based on when they filled in this particular form, this field value was this, and therefore put them into that segment. With Morty you can create as many custom fields as you need. There are some limitations based on the size of the database table, but most people don't hit that.

So any kind of data that you want to capture that's like unique to your particular business, you can create those fields to capture that data and then and segment on those. Also engagement patterns. So we have stages, for example, where you can have someone moving through the stages of a funnel.

That one's relatively common to be done. One of the really interesting things that Malti does that are not a lot of other competitors do is we have points-based scoring, which is fairly common, but you can set up your own points that are meaningful to your business. So you might want to score people based on how sales ready they are, and that could be a group of like sales readiness points, but you also might be interested if they're interested in educational material or if they're interested in event engagement or something like that.

So you can actually set up your own point groups and award and remove points based on the activity and behavior, and then use that as a filter in combination with a country or whatever. So, because you can do these and, and or filters in the, in the segmentation and personalization, you could say, if they're in the United States and they've got more than a hundred points in the event readiness and they've attended one event with us in Boston before, you know, so it really can get very specific to your own business needs and really, really flexible to meet whatever the requirements are of your specific marketing situation.

John: Hmm.

Nic: So, so what kind of reporting analytics around something like that, does it provide as well, can you, so like for example, if I'm setting up that trigger that you just mentioned, you're in the United States, you have a hundred points and you've attended a previously in Boston, one, one thing that is very problematic is the, the more ands you have, the less likely you have somebody in that pool.

Yeah. Yeah. So how easy is it to see, like, oh, you just narrowed the list to one person or zero people or mm-hmm. 50 people like. Does it does it make kind of validating your decisions and segmentation easy or is that something you have to just get used to the tool for?

Ruth: Yeah, so with those dynamic segments, as soon as you save it, it will show you how.

Wait, it might take a, we are to rebuild the segment that's done on Aqu job, but it will show you how many people are in that segment, and then you could just go and edit it and tweak it to be less restrictive if you've only got four people, for example.

John: Okay.

Ruth: We don't live calculate that on the fly as you're choosing your segmentation.

'cause that would have some quite big performance overheads. But it does do that as soon as you save the segment. So yeah, and also those, you run that on a CR job, but pretty much in real time if a behavior changes, like they suddenly say that they are in the US and they weren't, then the next time that corn job runs, they go into that segment.

Okay. So it kind of updates it in real time. We also have static segments, which is just like your traditional, I import a list and I add them to this segment. Or you just add people based on something in a campaign rather than being based on those fields. And,

John: and then I imagine if you had, okay, let's, let's say you had a list of 200 people and you created

Ruth: mm-hmm.

John: That segment, and it got down to 50 people. Right? I'm assuming that if you were to email those people or contact those people in some way, right?

Martin: Mm-hmm.

John: You could then associate a, a point value to their response. Like, Hey, if they respond to this email, click this button, do this thing, you know? Mm-hmm.

Increase their score by 25 points, and you might have a better you might, you might be able to get to a sub segment of those 50 that are, are. You know, actively engaged, right?

Ruth: That's right. Yeah. And you can also use points to actually degrade your leads so that if they're not engaging and they're not taking action and they're not going through the motions with the things that you are engaging them with, there isn't much point in keeping, depending on your marketing.

It's high in period and life cycle. It might be that you actually don't want to keep sending emails to them because that could harm your domain reputation, right? So you can also do that kind of degradation, and then if they start being active again, then they'll come back up. But if they get below a certain point level for a particular type of points, then you just drop them out, your active nurturing flow, for example, and they just go into like a re a retainer type flow.

Yeah.

John: So I mean,

Ruth: so it's pretty powerful.

John: Yeah. So, so the next point, like you could whittle that list of 50 down to like 10 people, but at least you know that those 10 people are super engaged and they're like, they're the the 10 people that you really wanna focus on.

Ruth: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And it really helps you to narrow it down what you are specifically interested in without having to kind of, so the more relevant you can make the messaging, the more relevant you can make the approach to those contacts, the more likely you are to get the action that you want to come outta that, like, turning up at an event or, you know, buying a particular thing and stuff like that.

So,

John: interesting.

Ruth: Yeah.

John: So I'm wondering all these great features, all of this great reporting and, and the ability to you know, kind of really understand your users, what, if any, are like the common pitfalls or mistakes that you see teams make when they adopt mm-hmm. Mautic. And like how, like how can we avoid them?

Ruth: I think despite the fact that we have it written everywhere you shouldn't use Mort Con shared hosting. We still get quite a few people using Moring on shared hosting in a under-resourced capacity, which is fine for the small scale.

John: Is there also a security or privacy issue there?

Ruth: There can be. It depends on what shared hosting you're using, I guess, and how carefully you manage that.

And, and because with shared hosting, you can't control the infrastructure. You can't control the dependency, outdated versions and stuff.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Ruth: So that, that's a, that's a common thing and people get problems with things not running properly or, you know, like CR jobs failing halfway through. I think another big thing is like, you can't automate your way out of a bad strategy and so you do need to think about marketing strategy.

A lot of people will start with multi and just literally be doing email blasts and then they take the time to think, right, how can we build this and how can we use points to do our email blast better? I think that's great, but like jumping in, trying to use everything without having a clear plan of how you're personalizing and more importantly why you are personalizing.

That can often be. Not a great experience for your users,

John: right? And

Ruth: not the best revenue generation for you. Like you're not, you haven't really thought through how it's gonna work best for your, your business.

John: Yeah, I imagine jumping in, like, I imagine jumping in and blasting everybody and then like people are like, oh God, stop.

And then you go, oh, let's, let's implement a point strategy. Like you've already kind of turned that person off. You missed your, missed your your mark there, right?

Ruth: Yeah. And, and there are basic things that you do in terms of email hygiene for like making sure that you warm up a new IP address gradually.

You don't just send to 5,000 people from a brand new email address or a new email sending provider. You do that gradually with your warmer contact and then open it up. So if people jump in without having someone who has some experience with marketing on the team, then that can also backfire a little bit.

Particularly email service providers are very, very tight now on the complaint ratio. So when you send an email, you have to keep that complaint ratio super large, super small, and if you're not careful, you can easily fall foul of that and then they will stop throttle you at first, but then they'll just kick you off basically if you, if you do that.

So thinking carefully about your strategy for adopting automation, and I think also people need to understand how open source works. Mm-hmm. You know, they need to understand that if you're using a free open source tool and you need support, you need to take out a support contract with an organization or be willing to just rely on the open source communities goodwill.

But we do, I think you get that same in Drupal where people are like, you need to right now. And it's kind of like if you are relying on it for your business, then you need to think about how are you actually gonna support it. And if you need an additional level of, of support. 'cause there is a bit of a learning curve, you know, when you first start.

John: Are there, are there shops out there that specialize in providing Mautic support and, and, and development?

Ruth: Yeah, absolutely. And also like taking care of the updates. For example, we release pretty much every month with a patch update, a security release once a quarter, a minor release, once a quarter as well.

So we do have a pretty established release cadence and there are releases that come regularly. So it's something that you need to think about if you are using more tickets is like how you plan for your update strategy as well.

John: It's funny, I was actually like, oh, I got the development side. Like updates seem like something I could handle.

I was more thinking on the the marketing side of like building the strategy and doing all that, but I'm sure

Ruth: Yeah,

John: sure. There, there are folks out there that could help with that. Definitely.

Ruth: Yeah. Most of our partners do provide marketing strategy as well as the hosting and su support side of things.

Particularly if you're a web agency and you haven't done an awful lot of marketing. What we've seen really successful is that they start by partnering up with a multi agency.

Catherine: Mm.

Ruth: And they help them kind of white label to start with until they're confident enough to take it in-house. And that's worked really well, helping some agencies get established with either using it in-house or like providing it to clients, but having that handholding in the first year or so from another organization to do that knowledge transfer.

And that's worked really well for some of our agencies.

Catherine: That's really interesting. I'm thinking more about the future and

Ruth: mm-hmm.

Catherine: Running the risk of a whole overflow of eye rolling. I think it's,

Ruth: it's, I know what's coming.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. We all do. Blah, blah, AI guessing everything up. What do you, what do you see as the future of open source marketing automation?

How is it changing in light of ai? Where does multi fit into that landscape?

Ruth: Yeah, good question. So we've, we've got an AI working group that's working on this, and MultiTech created a community and council created an AI manifesto of how we see AI coming into MultiTech. So we can put that in the show notes afterwards.

I do think it, it's really important that we. With the time, so to speak, and we are all using AI in some way, shape or form, whether you know it or not. I guess. What we've decided in Malick is that we need whatever we implement AI wise, it needs to be done in a sustainable way, not in a WHO new feature.

We need to drop this into MultiTech right way. So what we're gonna be doing, probably most likely, is implementing Symphony's AI bundle within matech, which will enable people to use whatever LLM providers they need, whether they're using a locally hosted or a cloud hosted and so forth. And we're looking at starting in the lowest touch, safest place, which is reporting and analytics.

Because in Nortech that's probably the weakest area. It's the area that we need to really improve and give some love, but it's also fairly safe in terms of we're not changing any data. We don't need to have access to personally identifiable data. So that's our plan to start with, is to implement some AI resources to allow people to actually interpret and analyze their data more effectively and then move to.

A more conversational tool that can help you with that, but also with understanding how to optimize and later on go into a more adjunct option that allows you to change stuff. But the important thing is that you will have the option to completely shut off all AI and never hear from it again unless you go and set it up.

Instead of having all these nags everywhere. Yeah. Telling you you should be. And you can turn it on component by component instead of an all or nothing. So you could just have reporting and analytics help and not have any of the gentech stuff.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Ruth: So that's sort of where we're going and things like helping you write better emails, helping you create more effective campaigns by using, well, what time do people actually open these emails in this segment?

All of that kind of stuff. Is that the way we think that Malick will really benefit from, from AI and helping people do their job better and more effectively? Really?

John: I can, that's, I can sympathize with that as somebody who sends out emails for a a nonprofit organization. The amount of, of interaction I have with chat GPT, when those emails have to go, go out to say like, okay, write me this email.

Okay, that sounds good. Let's change that and this and this. Okay, we're gonna edit it a little bit, and then we send it out. Like

Catherine: mm-hmm.

John: Bringing that into the the, the marketing automation platform feels, feels like a natural, a natural progression to me. Mm-hmm.

Catherine: I also like the focus on the data side of things, because I, especially in systems that have been around for a while, and they're, they're huge.

They've got a ton of information in them. I think being able to, to parse that and to get meaningful insights out of it is. Is super important.

John: Yeah.

Catherine: And it, and it's, it's where AI really shines right now, where LMS really shine. Yeah,

John: absolutely.

Catherine: That's,

John: I imagine, I imagine like AI guided segmentations to be like a, a really valuable tool for, for individuals.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna give Nick a second to break in here because I feel like he's, he is got something, something to say.

Nic: I do. I, I'll, I'll say I, I think having the ability to turn it off and disable it is something that needs to be preserved. I more tools should have that. But I'm, I'm actually curious about how AI is impacting Mautic in a slightly different manner, which is kind of sustainability.

Because what Drupal, the Drupal community right now is kind of working on trying to work out how their guidelines need to shift in the world of ai. And, and we're really struggling. With defining what's acceptable use. Mm-hmm. But I think one of the, one of the things that the community in general, in Drupal is missing is that we've been lar whether a blessing or a curse, there's a high bar to contributing to Drupal.

And the fact that we're on GitLab and Drupal org has actually protected us from a lot of the slot that a lot of open source communities are getting, or, or onslaught of like hundreds and hundreds of issues being created by bots because bots are just set up to integrate with GitHub now.

Martin: Mm-hmm.

Nic: You guys are on GitHub.

Yeah. I'm, I'm curious how AI has impacted kind of contribution in the community in general. Ha. Have you been hit with kind of just spurious issues being created, merge requests, or, or is that something that hasn't affected you yet either?

Ruth: Yeah, so we did the GitHub Secure Open source fund training recently, and that was super helpful and very insightful to hear from other open source projects who have been really hit by this kind of behavior.

And I, I mean, give them due where, you know, where it's due credit, where it's due, that GitHub have been working really hard to help maintainers stop that kind of behavior. We've had some, a lot of the time it's if we've got a bounty on an issue and then we get bots trying to fix the issue with totally irrelevant fixes that are not even files that exist in MAL and have no way that that would ever fix the problem.

So those one, it it's manual effort. You still have to review it and you still have to close it. But it's not been, yeah. Overwhelming. But on the positive side, we have co-pilot. So we have co-pilot review prs that has actually been really helpful. So it reviews our documentation prs and it's picked up stuff where people have made typos or whatever.

And although we use veil and linter and things to pick that up, co-pilot has picked up some we haven't. But it also reviews PRS in Mort and it's picked up errors and improvement in code that our core code reviewers haven't actually picked up. So from that perspective, the AI stuff in Mort has been helpful.

And our developers have found it helpful. Like we've written some prompts to tell to tell agents how to actually inter interact with Mors sick. Which I think people have found useful and things like writing automated tests that people don't like doing, and it takes, it can take a really long time.

Can we find that new developers particularly can get quite a headstart on that and then that can be reviewed by one of our core team and say, oh, actually you should probably do it like this because of this case in Mort. Yeah, but they've got like three quarters of the way there. There's no excuse now for not writing a test when you can just ask your AI bot to do it for you.

Whereas the past people were just not. So,

Nic: I, I will say that my experience with tests is that it's good at setting up kind of general, general test, but you, you have to be really, and this is true of whether a human, like this is one of the problem reasons why the Drupal community is having trouble with this, is that the behavior itself, the problem isn't necessarily the behavior, the outcome, it's the volume and the intent behind it.

Right. It's one thing for if a human spends five hours writing tests, they're completely wrong. It's very easy to be sympathetic to

Ruth: yeah

Nic: them and like be like, Hey, you spent a lot of effort. Some of it was misguided. Let me help you, let me mentor you. Let's get you in the right place. But when the same person just uses AI to spew out, spew that out in 30 seconds and didn't give a care, it's a lot harder to be sympathetic.

Yeah. The same thing is you,

Catherine: you have to fight fire with fire though. I think that Ruth, what you mentioned that, that I think is really important, right? Is that you have some automated code review, right? You have AI doing code review and whether we like it or not, like I, this is gonna be a problem. Bots are gonna be opening Merge Quest constantly.

And the way that you deal with this as an open source project is you have AI as your first line of defense. We might not like it, right? But there's no, I don't think that there's a reasonable way to stop the flood. And I don't think that there's, and we can't, we don't have the volunteers, we don't have the, we don't have the humans to do the first round of code reviews.

Mm-hmm. That's just, I mean,

Nic: I mean, I, I think I, I'll take slight issue of saying there's no reasonable way to stop the flood. I mean, we've, we have tools in place for things like email, right? And we've, as Ruth said, we, we found ways to solve that, right? Servers now take into account open rates and reports very, very strictly.

And if we just need to have something similar that applies to people that are facilitating, opening these and flows back to some way that flows back to the agents or tools themselves. So like, if. If we find that this person has a bot that's opening issues that are getting closed outright across, you know, 20% of the things are being closed, well that bot just loses their token until the person fixes it.

Mm-hmm. Like, right. And, and similarly with like claw or like the new, was it the claw bot or whatever, like if they're opening, if they're, it, it's not a single person, but their tool is opening by default, it somehow needs to flow back upstream as a, as a spam, as a spam thing. But the only other thing I, the other point I really wanted to make though is that you, you still need somebody in the loop that has expertise in testing, which is very hard because one of the things that bots do very well, which is the same thing that new, new users do, is they test the expected outcome, right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Nic: Which. Doesn't necessarily provide the best test. Like it, it proves that the thing you wanted to happen happens, but doesn't help protect against What you really want is like regressions or hey, if you don't have a segment assigned to this person, everything blows up, right? And so you still, you still need that expertise and, and I think AI can help with kind of building the harness or like the test, you know, like it's extending the right class and it's putting in the right place and it's doing that stuff.

But you still have to think through the logic. You still need the expertise to think through. How do we wanna make sure that this test coverage is good? But that's, yeah.

Ruth: I mean, we

Nic: humans or ai like it,

Ruth: we also have end-to-end tests as well as the, the functional and the unit tests. So we do have an end-to-end test.

We just suite, we just don't have much coverage right now, so,

Nic: yeah.

Ruth: But that is the set exactly what you are saying. Like, when you do this thing, do all of the things you should do in MarTech still work.

Nic: Yeah. So

Ruth: yeah.

John: Going back to the open source sustainability aspect

Ruth: mm-hmm.

John: And, and switching the lens a little bit more towards the, towards the financial.

Right? Yeah. So I'm wondering kind of what the, what the outlook looks like for Mautic and I and understand, I think that the community is doing some sort of fundraising right now

Ruth: mm-hmm.

John: To help support, you know, Mautic sustainability. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Ruth: Yeah, so since we spun out from Acquia, we've been completely self-funded.

So we are on Open Collective, open Source Collective is our fiscal host. So you could, everyone can see all of the transactions back to, I think we started using it in 2021 on open source collective which is great 'cause it's a public ledger. People can see all of the way that the funds are used and so on and so forth.

We, so far we've been doing pretty well. I mean, we've gone from zero to like 150 K income a year in a couple of years, which is, is not to be sniffed at. And we budget every year. We share the budget with the community who decide to accept that budget and so forth. But what happens when you have the, the conditions that we have in the world right now, just the general.

Conditions is a lot of organizations tightening their belts and a lot of organizations rebudgeting to tighten their belts. Mm-hmm. So at the end of last year, we heard that a big contract we were expecting, which is worth about 30 grand didn't go through because of Rebudgeting. And we also had a couple of members decide to drop their tier.

So within like four weeks we'd lost $60,000 of funding. Mm. That's why we're doing this fundraiser right now, because in, in a project that only has like 150 hundred 60 K income a year, that's a massive amount to lose. Yeah. So we have almost,

John: almost 50.

Ruth: Yeah, right. It's something like 40% I think of last year's income.

So it's always something I've said to people is like, yeah, now we're not dependent on Acquia. We don't just wanna replace Acquia with another in organization. And then at some point in the future, we're still dependent on that organization. We need a broad base of financial contributors across our ecosystem, rather than a few small benevolent ones to, to make sure that we are truly resilient.

So we've been working on that anyway, and this has just forced the forced that. So yeah, we have had to re-budget ourselves as a result of that. So I used to work full-time. I'm now three days a week temporarily until we resolve these situations and we've had to our budget that was non-essential basically.

So, you know, things like. Sticker swag for people who contribute. We can't afford that because we've gotta post it all around the world and that costs money.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Ruth: So until we actually resolve this and we get back onto a good financial footing we've had to sort of scale back on the things that do help grow and nurture.

So we're kind of going into a yeah. A minimalist period until we get

John: Yeah.

Ruth: The ball rolling. But so far so good. I mean, we've re we launched the fundraiser on Thursday. We're already at nearly $9,000.

John: Hmm.

Ruth: Our minimum goal is 40,000. So actually we, you know, we've got some good momentum, but we've gotta keep that going.

So, yeah, it's tough. And, and we're not the only open source project that has had this kind of issue. Lots of us funding was just removed overnight, for example, and some lost millions through that. So we're trying to diversify our revenue streams. So we have memberships, we also have certification. We're about to launch.

We run our Mor World conference, which we have sponsors for an extended long-term support as well, so that we have multiple streams that bring revenue into the community rather than just membership, which is donations really.

Nic: Yeah. I mean, if you, if you solve that problem, please let me know because it's open.

It's really tough capability. Yeah. I mean, yeah. E even if you, one of the things that struck me recently is d Dev is kind of going through a, a similar thing, right? Yeah. They lost a fair amount of. Funding from their primary sources. They've been fundraising again. They've built back up a quite a bit of it.

And, and to be honest, like the amount I'm seeing d Dev just in places where I don't expect it. Like I, I ran into an I, I see you guys using D mm-hmm. Ran into an issue the other day where I was trying to install Omo for somebody and ran into a weird case because I had d Dev installed within DE and I'm like, what?

And it turns out that promo uses d Dev and it, I Silvers stripes started using d like, it seems like every PHP project on the planet is starting to use DE. And so we need to find a way to just get these companies like we kind of need a global like. If you're using open source, you put this much money in it.

We find out what open source projects do you use. We div divvy it up between them all. Yeah. It goes

John: back to, goes back to my idea of like an open source sustainability fund that is, you know, a, it, it is it, you know, a portion invested to, to keep it, to keep itself moving and, and, you know, it, it then yeah, goes to pay hard problem pay some of these, these projects.

But, you know it's not, it's not so easy to ask folks for large sums of money to, to fund those sorts of things as we're all finding out. Yeah.

Ruth: Yeah, there are some tools out there like, thanks, dev, for example that let you do that. Like, here's a chunk of money, give it to the dependencies that I use that kind of thing.

And there's also ecosystems, which is ecosystem s yst ms, which is like really hard to say but they allow you to find out what open source is being used in your, in your apps. So,

John: Hmm.

Nic: Could we, could we put that second one in the in the show notes too, because I, I got the things up, but not the other one, and then make sure we, we promote those.

But yeah, I mean, sus sustainability, it's something that the Drupal community has been talking about for a long time. Mm-hmm. It, I, I think the DA is dealing with similar, not as severe, but the DA is certainly dealing with you know, funding issues and you know's just there, there's multiple levels of sustainability.

There's of course, cash. But there's also, you know, time and willingness and expertise and stuff. So yeah.

John: So let's, let's dive into that a little bit. If you can't donate cash, mm-hmm. But you are a developer or user who does Yeah. Want to contribute to Mautic, mm-hmm. How can, how can folks do that?

How do, how can you get involved with the project?

Ruth: So we have a, a quick link to get to our main contribution resource, which is TC slash contribute, and we'll put that in the show notes, but that is like our contribution overview page on our community handbook. As developers, there are lots of ways you can support Mort.

If you know Symphony, then a great way to help is like just finding one of the small bugs that is in the issue queue. They usually have good first issue or they're tagged with T one, which means tier one. They're quite a small issue that shouldn't take long to fix. And then we, and we have documentation on how to make a pull request.

In that contribution guidelines, how to write tests, which branch to use, all of that is documented. As you said, we use D Dev. So you just spin up an instance locally. It's got XD bug installed and everything there for you. There's also the option to do PR testing like we do require two humans to review every PR as well as ai.

And that's a good way if you haven't used Malick before, because it does help you to explore the application more. 'cause you've gotta reproduce the bug and then you pull down the pull request and check if it actually fixes the bug. So those are two good ways, and if you are, we were talking earlier before we started about technical writers who are also developers.

Our API documentation hasn't actually been updated and brought across to our new developer docs, so it's still kind of quite outdated and not in the format we need for, for our new docs. So if developers are up for like, poking a few buttons on our API and postman or tool of choice, seeing what the response is and then writing the documentation to, to tell developers, that's a really lovely way that, that we desperately, desperately need people.

But it, we're not all developers. We have tons of low and no code tasks as well. So MAU TC slash no hyphen code goes to overboard on project board on GitHub, which has loads of different types of tasks from marketing to documentation, writing to ux, ui, and so on and so forth. So yeah, if you have skills, whether it's as a designer, a marketer, a developer we have more than enough things you can help us with.

Nic: So there's always a lot of work to do in open source, right?

Ruth: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Nic: Well, thank you, Ruth, for joining us. It's been a pleasure to chat about Mautic again with you.

Ruth: Thank you for having me. It's been lovely to talk more.

John: Do you have questions or feedback? Reach out to talking Drupal on the socials with the handle talking Drupal or by email with [email protected].

You can connect with our hosts and other listeners on Drupal Slack in the Talking Drupal channel.

Nic: If you would like to be a guest on Talking Drupal or a new show, TD Cafe, you can click on the guest request button in the [email protected].

John: You can promote your Drupal community event on Talking Drupal.

Learn [email protected] slash td promo,

Nic: and you can get the Talking Drupal newsletter. To learn more about our guest host show news, upcoming shows, and much more, you can sign up for the [email protected] slash newsletter.

John: And thank you patrons for supporting talking Drupal. Your support is greatly appreciated.

You can learn more about becoming a [email protected] and choosing the Become a Patron button in the sidebar.

Nic: Alright, Ruth, if our listeners wanna get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Ruth: You can reach out to me on email, Ruth [email protected], so C-H-E-E-S-L-E-Y. And I'm on most social platforms, so Master on Blue Sky, Twitter, et cetera.

Just search for my name.

Nic: Awesome. And Catherine, how about

Catherine: you? Yeah, that Drupal Slack channel's probably easiest. Or the, yeah, the workspace and it's under a que how my name is spelled here.

Nic: Awesome. And John, how about you?

John: You can find me on all the major social networks dral.org at John Zi. You can find me personally at picozzi.com and you can find out more about epam at epam.com.

Nic: And you can find me pretty much everywhere at nicxvan N-I-C-X-V-A-N.

John: And if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking. Thanks a lot everyone.

Nic: See you next week.