Talking Drupal #534 - Webhaven.io

John: This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design development from a group of people with one thing in common. We love Drupal. This is episode 5 34 Web Haven io. On today's show, we're talking about Web haven.io, what it is and how it helps build Drupal faster. With our guest Fons Van Dam, we'll also cover Metatag Simple Widget as our module of the week.

Welcome to Talking Drupal. Our guest today is Fon Z Dam. Fons helps to build and grow a agency entity, one in different roles for over a decade. And then. He felt like it was time for a change and that's primarily what we're gonna talk about today vs. Welcome to the show and thanks for joining us.

Fons: Thanks for having me.

John: I'm John Picozzi, solutions architect, at EPAM, and today my co-hosts are joining us for the whole show. Martin Anderson-Clutz, a principal solutions engineer at Acquia. Thanks. Great to be here. And Nic Laflin, founder at nLightened Development.

Nic: Happy to be here starting to snow, so hopefully we don't get too much only person, only

John: person in the world that is voting for not to have a white Christmas.

Nic: It's supposed to snow Wednesday and Thursday too, so we can still have a white Christmas and not have snow today.

John: There you go. Alright. Fair enough. Fair enough. Alright, before we jump into our primary topic, let's turn it over to Martin to talk about our module of the week. Martin, what do you have for us this week?

Martin: Thanks, John. Have you ever wanted a simplified widget for managing Metatags in your Drupal content? There's a module for that. It's called Metatag Simple Widget, and it was created in July of 2025 by Jim Ro of four kitchens. It has 1.0 0.0 and 1.1 0.0 versions available. The latter of which works with Drupal Core 10 and 11.

It does have security coverage and is actively maintained. There are officially no open issues for the project, and it is in use by one site according to drupal org. Now with this module installed in the form configuration for your content types, you'll see a new simplified Metatags form widget for Metatag Fields.

It's designed to provide a dramatically streamlined input for metatags focused on only exposing the most commonly used tags. The title in description. As a configuration option. You can have the widget hide default values, which for metatag fields often contain tokens, which could be confusing for Drupal neophytes.

The modules was nominated by Dave Hanson Lang AKA Dolan, also of four kitchens, and a co maintainer as well as a fellow Canadian. I also wanted to give a shout out to the drupal.org infrastructure working group. In the lead up to this recording, there was a media server failure that brought down the entire site.

They worked as furiously as Santa Elves and were able to quickly get the site back up. It was a reminder for me of how much we all in this segment in particular depend on the tireless work they do. In this season of giving. Please consider supporting the Drupal do Drupal Association, and if you already do, maybe see if you could give a little more.

But let's talk about Metatag simple widget.

John: Before we get started two, two things. Yes. Agree to the infrastructure team and all the hard work that they do to keep all of our Drupal sites up and running by keeping drupal.org up and running. Second neophytes. Could somebody define that for me?

Somebody new to Drupal. Thank you. Okay, got it. Yeah. Now so this module definitely solves a, a, a issue, right? Because if you've ever used meta tags, man, it does so much. But the, the form field is huge. Huge. Yeah. Literally you scroll forever. I, so I think, I think this module is super, sorry. So I think this module is super useful, like, I love it.

I just have one question, and Martin, you may or may not know this, so you know, let me know, but I'm wondering, is it configurable to add additional fields? So like, if you were using, for example like, I don't know open open graph, right? And you wanted to add the open graph fields to that, to that form.

Could you do it?

Martin: So I, I did have a look at the code and I'm pretty sure it's hard coded to work with just the title in description fields. I could see maybe in a future like maybe of a major version adding the ability to sort of configure exactly which fields you want exposed, which sounds like it would be amazingly useful.

The other thing I could see potentially being useful down the road might be something like saying for people of a certain role, show them the very basic form, but then maybe mm-hmm. Have a permission to show people the full set of forms, you know, if they're more of like an SEO professional or something like that.

John: Yeah. That's what gets me with metatag is 'cause of the 'cause of the accordions. Like you get flipping a million different accordions. So it'd be cool to just be able to, like, I, yeah.

Nic: Well, there's a couple of other issues too, right? It's it causes some performance issues 'cause there's so many form fields and it's in the sidebar, so it, it's funny, maybe there's still an opportunity here, but I've actually been in talks with one of my clients to sponsor me writing a custom contributed module that basically just hides every field except for image, title and description.

Because yes, there are many, and those are all needed. It's great that Meditech provides it, but I literally have never had a client that's needed anything beyond those, except for maybe a video once. So. Why is the default to show 4,000 fields instead of the four or five that you need? And so, yeah, they, they, they agreed to sponsor a contribute module that basically hides everything except for those.

And yeah, if there's interest in the future, we could make it more.

John: So Could you like roll that, roll that into like just you know, upgrading or, or contributing to this module to, to make it do what what you need it to do? 'cause

Nic: yeah, I mean, as long as they're open to con, you know, adding me as a maintainer, but it, it sounds like it does something slightly different than I expect.

So maybe it's cleaner to have multiple modules depending on what your use case is.

John: I dunno, I'm, I'm a little anal retentive, so I'm like, ah, one module. You guys can, you guys can, you guys can compromise on the feature set there.

Martin: I think it's worth pointing out to Nick that what you're describing sounds a lot like how Canvas works outta the box.

So it does expose Metatags, but just the very simple set, you know, for the, the same reasons. So having all of you know, Drupal meta tags kind of work that way sounds like it would be definitely worthwhile improvement.

John: I mean, for you Nick, it feels like the, the feature to be able to like check and uncheck which boxes show up would be, or at least which groups show up would be, would be helpful.

But

Nic: happy to add you as a co maintainer if I create a good trip module. Oh, I don't, I dunno,

John: I don't know if anybody wants me, wants my PHP code in their module, actually. I can guarantee that you don't, but yeah, I don't know. This seems, this seems interesting. I, and it's funny because with, with this segment throughout the past, past couple of years, I've always, I always come away with like, oh, let me add that to my own personal site and try it out.

And this one kind of jumps onto that list 'cause I'm like, all right, there aren't a lot of a lot of meta meta things that I do on my on my site. So limiting this down to to just those fields might be, might be useful. So interesting. All right, Martin. Well, this was a, a great module of the week.

Very, very useful. We'll see if we can get that. The number of sites using it up, up over the, over the holiday here. If folks wanted to suggest a module of the week or just chat to you about modules they're working on, where could they do that?

Martin: Well, folks can follow Dave's lead and post suggestions in the talking Drupal channel of drupal.org, or they can reach out to me directly as man clue on all of the Drupal and social platforms.

John: Fabulous. Alright. We now have a member of the Drupal Recording Initiative to tell us more about that and ask for your help.

Speaker: Hi Drupal community. Have you learned from a video on Drupal TV lately? If you haven't, go check it out today. The site is a great resource and is growing all the time. Thanks to the efforts of the recording initiative, we bring all the equipment needed to capture sessions at Dral events. And help ensure the recordings are successful.

As I record this, I've just finished uploading videos from Bad Camp. In the next couple months, we expect to facilitate capturing Drupal Count Vienna, Pacific Northwest Drupal Summit, Southwestern Ontario, Drupal Camp. Chattanooga Drupal Camp DrupalCon Asia, and evolve Drupal NYC. We run a tight ship, but it isn't free, and we could use some help to keep the initiative sustainable.

If you have the means to donate, please visit bit ly slash help dri. Corporate donations of over $500 are recognized on the initiative page on dral.org. I hope we can count on your support. Thank you.

John: Thanks. I can't recommend enough. The Drupal Recording Initiative really, really helps a lot, bring a lot of great Drupal content to the community from, from camps. I know as a camp organizer myself that initiative really, really helped us get our, get our recording game down. So if you can help them out.

Yeah, I think you should do it. Alright, let's jump into our primary topic. So vs. Give us like a, a 30,000 foot overview of what web Haven is.

Fons: Okay. So I think of Web Haven as the ultimate Drupal site starter, so it helps you launch your next Drupal project in days and not weeks. And it's the result of 15 years of analyzing, designing, and building countless Drupal projects.

Myself. The ID of Web Haven has always been in the back of my head, and it's just something that I have to, I feel like I have to get it out of my system, so I had to build it for myself and hopefully also for others. So, web Haven essentially is made for Drupal newcomers and learners for seasoned dev Drupal experts and for ambitious agencies.

John: Hmm.

Nic: So, so how does it work then, because that seems as, as a seasoned Drupal developer, that seems like a tall task. I mean, it, it's a, it's a simple requirement, but a tall task. So how, how does Web Haven accomplish this?

Fons: Yeah, so Web Haven in essence, is an two plus site starter. So you can set up a local environment of Web Haven, and it has a visual site installer.

So you given your site name. The installer that pops up is like a menu. You pick and choose what recipes or pieces of functionality that you want to install. Some are required. For example the Web Haven Base, web Haven Settings, web Haven Canvas, and Web Haven, SEO. Others are optional. For example, web Haven blog events, landing page showcase web Haven is built with developer experience in mind.

So it runs on d Dev to set up your environment in a breeze. And my last check the last time I timed it, it took me 43 seconds to set up a new Web Haven project on my local machine. Oh, wow.

Wow. That's

Nic: that's pretty impressive.

Fons: And it's not a powerful machine. It's a, it's a MacBook Air, so it's not that I'm running it on a super crazy specked computer. But of course it'll depend on how fast you go through the visual installer. If you have to think about the options for 10 minutes, it'll take 10 minutes and 43 seconds to set up.

Nic: Okay. And yeah, I assume it has to have d dev pre-configured and Docker pre-configured and

Fons: Yeah. On the Web Haven and website, I have a documentation page which helps you to install those. But I do indeed to require you to have d dev set up, which is also something that's not that hard, but it could add a little friction for some.

But that's something we'll maybe talk about later.

John: Okay. I so. I think I already know the answer to this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Why DE why was that the, the development environment that you chose?

Fons: Because I've tested a lot of stuff and DEF was the solution with almost no friction, so I didn't find anything better, and it just works.

So, yeah, it's, it's really amazing how good it works. So I just went with that.

John: Understandable.

Fons: I also hope I can sponsor DE in the, in the future when Web Haven kicks off. So that's one of the things I hope I also can accomplish.

Martin: Now, FZ, you mentioned recipes as one of the building blocks within Web Haven.

Why does Web Haven use recipes? So,

Fons: recipes, so. I was looking for a good solution to bundle pre-made chunks of configuration. And recipes are a fairly new concept, but they are the perfect solution. Some of the Drupal OGs will say, recipes aren't new at all. So we had fe the features module back in Drupal seven when configuration management wasn't the thing yet.

And I'll put it mildly, but that module gave me a lot of sleepless nights in the past. But I, I'm happy that's over, so thank God. So yeah, recipes really felt like the, the, the piece that I needed to, to bolt everything together. It's important piece of the puzzle and the installer.

John: Do you, what types of, what types of issues, if any, did you, did you kind of run into while building this with recipes? Like I, I'm, I'm, I'm, it feels like you were probably working with recipes pretty early on. Like, were there any things that you kind of ran into that you were like, oh, how are we gonna, how are we gonna overcome this?

Yeah.

Fons: It's really interesting and I think it's a a topic that I want to create some content on in the near future. It's interesting because it felt a bit like unchartered territory, so it was a challenge to figure this out. There's not that much information out there yet about recipes or, or how to make them.

There's a lot of information, what they are, what they do, but not on how to create them. So I, I hope I can help to change this based on my experience with it.

Hmm.

So I've experimented a lot with workflow. For now, to be honest, I'm just cherrypicking my recipes and they all live in their own hit repository.

Thank God it only takes less than a minute to spin up a new Web Haven project. So that allows me to create, alter and test recipes really fast. So now I have a workflow going that works for me, but it's something that I really want to document and share. And also it's something that I would like feedback on from other people in the community because yeah, it really feels like uncharted territory and it, I think it's something we'll figure out.

But it's an interesting topic.

John: So, I mean, I, I, as I'm listening to this, this, this sounds it sounds magical and it sounds, it, it sounds like it's got a great set of features, but I'm wondering, is this built on top of Drupal CMS? Is it a maybe a different, different type of experience than Drupal CMS? Like, how does, how do, how does it, not so much compete, but like, why would one person choose Web Haven over Drupal CMS or vice versa?

Fons: Yeah. Interesting question. It's something that I, I thought about a lot myself, so. I started working on a Web haven when Drupal CMS started to be a thing. And there are some similarities. I think Drupal CMS more is like a showcase to show what can Drupal do. So you go to the installer and it shows what Drupal is, what it can do.

And with Web Haven, I have a more developer oriented experience and it also has pieces that I don't think through CMS has, for example the team that's, that comes with Web Haven is of another yeah. Is something that I don't see in Drupal CMS yet. Mm-hmm. So I think the use case is a bit different, but it's something that totally can coexist.

Mm.

John: I

Fons: see.

John: So, so. So you're looking at, you're looking at this as more of a, a starter kit or an accelerator for a development team to be able to kind of like move towards a, a, a website faster with Drupal as opposed to Drupal CMS. That's more of like, let's install Drupal CMS and move towards like a marketing, like a more geared towards like a marketing team to move towards a, towards a web, web product,

Fons: Last year.

Yeah. Yeah. The idea is to have a really solid base for developers to do their thing, but my ambition always was to have it client showable from day one. Mm-hmm. So from the moment it, it, it's a start. You can show it to your client. Okay. The client has to be able to look through it, but it looks good from the start.

So if you go to Webpa now, it has a, a base team. It doesn't need a lot of overrides to change it, so you can easily build on top of it. So yeah, it probably saves you. Countless hours. Mm-hmm. And you can really focus your time on what matters for your clients. And that's what differentiates it, in my opinion.

Nic: So it, it looks like the theme might be using single directory components. Why did you choose to use those and did you kind of run into any edge cases that might be interesting for listeners to, to know about?

Fons: Yes. So I've been using components for quite a while. Even before single directory components wasn't a thing or wasn't part of Drupal Core yet.

I think a lot of you might know the components module. So using components has a lot of benefits and performance testability and also maintainability. But next to that, in my opinion, I think it's also the way forward. Because it also gets rid of a lot of Drupal specific stuff. So it really opens the door to an extra batch of talented developers who want to work on Drupal front ends, and they don't have to learn all the Drupal specific in and out.

So it lowers the barrier, which is a good thing. And I think Drupal convers is, and will be the perfect example of that in the, in the Drupal ecosystem.

John: Hmm.

Nic: Do you anticipate what is the theme called, by the way? Is it Web Haven theme or is it like, do you have Yeah, do, do you anticipate releasing any of these pieces kind of separately?

Like the theme or the component or the single directory components or the recipe piece, or is it only part of the Web Haven project?

Fons: Now it's not in my mind to separate it, but if a lot of people would ask me to do that, I would of course consider it. But it, it's never was a spec for me, but with a lot of stuff, that's why I wanna have to get it out of the, out of the door.

So based on the feedback, it'll start and, and go somewhere that I might not have in my mind now. So it really is an option and I'm open to everything. If people want that, we'll we'll do that.

Martin: Yeah. I will mention that I know Drupal CMS uses a SUBTREE split, so they have kind of a mono repo that has all of the things, but then they expose out just individual parts of it so that those can be reused using those SubT splits.

So that might be something for Web Haven to look at as well. Yeah, totally. So we've talked a little bit about the component library. Can you bring your own component library to work with Web Haven? Yeah. So

Fons: Web Haven ships with a team and it's jam packed with components that help you create visually stunning pages.

And you don't have to write a single line of code yourself. So you can easily work on top of that by generating your own team based on the Web Haven Star team. That's already, and in this team, you can introduce your own co component library or you can build on top of the Web Haven component library.

That's up to you. So developers have their, have freedom in this.

John: So it's, it's sub them, which is, which is nice. 'cause I, I feel like that's something that sometimes Drupal is not. It's not as easy to do in Drupal. So that's something that you kind of built in from the start was like, Hey, people are gonna sub-theme what we got going on here.

Fons: Yes, but it doesn't use the traditional sub-team away from the past. It already uses starter kits, so Web Haven really uses all the new cutting edge Drupal stuff, and I feel like Starter Kits is a, an important part of that. Same with SDC. So,

John: so, can somebody remind me what Starter Kits are? Because I know that they're, they're like, new, new Drupal, but I'm like, kind of like Nick's shaking his head.

Go for it, Nick.

Nic: They're, they're not New Starter Kit is the, the theme. Yeah. Starter kit is a theme that you're explicitly meant to create your new theme from. So, so it's basically a theme that gets copied. Okay. So

John: not exactly another name for site templates. It's, it's like the old school, like starter, starter theme starter camp.

Got it. Okay.

Nic: It's a starter kit theme.

John: Come on. That, that happened in like the last two years though, didn't it? No, no. Fi around for clearly. Clearly I theme so many Drupal sites.

Nic: I'm curious about an architectural decision that you would've had to have made funds. It's one that Drupal CMS made and there, and that is what about backwards compatibility? Drupal CMS has kind of explicitly said, Hey, we're not doing BC right. You, you kind of install, it's meant to be a starting point, and then you kind of go off into the world and do what you want.

And that's kind of the tactic that recipes generally take too, right? Some people take the effort to make the mind potent and potent, but. The idea is like, you, you apply a recipe as is at its state, but the recipe maintainer can make whatever change they want and not worry about backwards compatibility.

What was your, you, you're obviously constrained by recipes, but what was your decision when working on Web Haven? Do you kind of say like, Hey, today to, to tomorrow an install Web Haven may change slightly depending on what we need? Or do you try to kind of make them work the same a as you continue to develop?

Fons: That's a really good question. So for now, recipes are more of a starting point to install your website. So it's, it's something I've been experimenting with. So as an experiment, I've already set up a Web haven recipe, installed it, and I changed it drastically. And then I used an LLM to automatically create a Drupal module.

To update existing installations. And how did I do that? I took how the recipe was and how it changed, and the hit diff or the changes were then used by the LLM to generate an update module, and this worked really well. So, but it was in a experimental phase, so this is a part that I'm going to have to explore further.

So I would love to keep working on the recipes, but also create modules and I'll tag my recipes with versions and between versions, I'll, I, I would like to offer updates, modules, and then it's up to the site owner to decide if they want those updates or not. It's, it's up to them. Okay. So for recipes that are evolving.

That's an option and for totally new recipes. For example, if I would introduce a documentation recipe in the future, it's totally possible to just install this on an already running website because it's a new recipe. But yeah, it's something also that feels like uncharted territory. And it's also something that I'm still thinking about, but I think eventually we'll be able to make, to, to have a solution for this.

So, there, there will be an upgrade

Nic: spot. Yeah. A as a developer, I would honestly say I wouldn't really expect it an upgrade path for recipes, right? Because that's kind of what core recipes do. I, and, and an existing site, I really wouldn't want to try to update automatically because they're living things, right?

They, they change configuration. What I would prefer instead is. Which also takes a fair amount of work is just documentation on, Hey, this is what changed in this thing. Like if you change a field name or machine name or like, Hey, I have to, you know, this module was abandoned so I got rid of it and we're switching to this 'cause of X, Y, Z.

That kind of information is helpful and then it's up to me to decide if I wanna take that and move with it or not. And that does impact future recipes. Like if there's, if you kind of build on top of it. But I wouldn't, it, it, it sounds like your target market isn't the Drupal CMS target market, so No.

You might be able to lean into the No, like I, I, part of me sometimes questions the obesity path. I, I understand why they made it. I'm not really criticizing or saying they should change it, but. I, I think that target market needs BC more than the target market that you have. So I, yeah, I'm not trying to encourage you to expand inordinate effort to, to, to, to add that.

Fons: No, but I think the, the approach that I tested already with the hit Diff and the module for an LLM, it would be easy to write documentation and it would do the heavy lifting and do 80% of the work. And then me as a creator would review it, put my structure and content on top of it, and I think I could fairly easy make a solution for it that way.

John: So just to clarify, 'cause I'm like kind of, kind of agreeing with what Nick's saying, but also kind of agreeing with what you're saying. So like. Would it be a single module that was like the, the web haven update module? Or would it be like a module per update? Like that would just be like, oh, like a new module that you'd have to install?

Because like after a while, like my, I don't know, my personal pet peeve is like bunch of, bunch of modules on a site that you can't really, like, it's not clear what they, what they necessarily do. And then it becomes unmaintainable. Like, I'm kind of in Nick's camp where like if I'm using, I'm using a starter and it's built on recipes, I'm kind of understanding that I'm gonna, I'm gonna like forge my own path once I, once I install it.

Right. So I mean, if it was one module, it was like, Hey, if you turn this on, you'll get updates. And it just kind of like, as, as things grew, it updated, I'd be like, eh, okay. One module, not a big deal. But any thoughts on that?

Fons: The. The viewpoint of having it in the documentation is new to me, and maybe that's the way to go. But again, if, if I make sure the documentation is written well, it wouldn't be hard to make a module of it if you, if you would like that. So I think it's something I would have to tailor to what people like, and maybe I want it like this and you want it like that, and yeah, why not have both?

If, if I can use an LLM for, for this in a, in an easy way, it looks like a perfect use case where an LLM does the heavy lifting because it's not that nice to, it's not exciting work. I would rather work on the product and evolve it, but it's, it's really important, so,

John: yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So talking about a feature I do know is new to Drupal.

Drupal Canvas. I'm wondering, does, does Web Haven work with Drupal Canvas? I know you talked about components and single directory components. Is it using kind of like a, a Drupal Canvas esque layout mechanism?

Fons: So, yes, and I've been posting about Drupal Canvas on my X and LinkedIn account the past couple of week weeks.

So Drupal Canvas is the best and the worst thing that could have happened to me. So, Drupal Canvas really is the missing piece of the puzzle and I'm really impressed with how good it works. And I'm sharing a lot of previews on my socials of how Web Haven is adopting Drupal Canvas as the default page builder.

So I was planning to release Web Haven officially the beginning of January. So it's an enclosed beta now. But Web Haven was originally built on top of a Drupal layout builder. So I am postponing the launch because of Drupal Canvas, because,

John: but that's a pretty easy update, right? So like, you could take the blocks from layout builder and use them in Drupal Canvas.

Right, right. I love your opt, I love your opt, everybody. Just for the audio listener, everybody is shaking their head. No, John, that is not as easy as it sounds. Stop, stop putting that out into the world. Sorry, Fonz, I interrupted you. Continue. I'm afraid.

Nic: I'm afraid not.

John: Okay. It's not,

Fons: I'm

John: afraid.

Nic: I'd love to hear how, how paid for, how, how that went though, because I, I know just from reading how complex it'll be, but I'd love to know the actual nitty gritty of what that involved.

Fons: So, I, I've started to test with Drupal Canvas when it still was in beta and in in release candidates, and, it made me cry because it, it was so good and it was the missing piece of the puzzle, but I also realized that I would have to make a really tough decision and I want to go for a great with Web Haven and the solution I made with Layout Builder doesn't feel like that after testing and working with Drupal Canvas.

So it's not easy to strip all that effort, but I think the results, so Web Haven will be a lot better if it works on Drupal Canvas from day one. And to be honest, I also don't want to invest all my time in making Web Haven making an upgrade part from Layer Builder to Drupal Canvas. So I really want to.

Focus my time on the product and on spreading the message. So that's why I'm now implementing Drupal Canvas. And I think I'm at 70% now, but probably the last part will be the hardest. I

John: mean,

Fons: but

John: that makes a hundred percent sense to me. Like I can understand wanting to focus on Drupal canvas. 'cause I think especially for the built the integrated component component library and, and everything you're building, like, you know, that experience is gonna be probably a lot better for the users.

Would you agree?

Fons: Yes. It's a totally different world. And also for Drupal it's really a game changer. I've been using Drupal for like 15, 16 years and I really had a lot of wow moments. For example, when Webform was introduced and views and, but now it's Drupal Canvas. I've never felt about anything like I do with seeing Drupal Canvas.

I think it's really the missing piece of the puzzle for Drupal to, to grow into something new and bigger for the web.

Nic: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm excited too. I, it's been a couple months since I've spun it up. There were still a couple of paper cuts that I think would be kind of painful, but and I'm a little worried about the data structure.

It, it's very layout builder esque. But other than, I mean, it's, there's obviously a lot of momentum behind it, and I think it's gonna open up a lot of doors. I'm pretty excited. There's, there's another startup in the Drupal world that came out recently called Drip Yard which is kind of a, I think it's trying to do something similar to what you're doing for developers for themes.

Yes. Have you by any chance evaluated drip yard and, and looked at what an integration would look like between the two, two services, because it feels like a, a good partnership?

Fons: Yeah, I've, I've checked out the work of Drip Yard and I was really amazed. They're also on the cutting edge and using all the new technologies.

So, it's really a great work. I also see a lot of differences because they really focus on the front end and how I see it, the team, I think it's, they are also planning to integrate with Drupal CMS. I've been following the posts they do on Reddit and I also mentioned on Reddit once in a comment that.

Once Web Haven is out, I'd love to talk about maybe an something we can do together. So we'll see. But yeah, I think we have the same mission that we want to grow Drupal, but we each have our own part in that puzzle. But yeah, that would be great. Yeah.

Martin: One of the things that I think is really exciting about Canvas is actually the fact that you can use it with headless sites is Web Haven. Something that can be used to use Drupal in more of a headless architecture.

Fons: So yeah, you can do everything with Web Haven that you would, that you could with a standard Drupal installation.

Me personally, I'm more fan of the hybrid solution. For example, you have a Drupal site and a front end that you run with Drupal and you expose some of that content or the authentication system to your mobile app. So a part of it can be reached headless. So this is all possible, but it will require some custom work so it's not supported out of the box with the flip of a switch.

It's not just, but it's possible. Yes, e everything that's possible with Drupal is possible with Web Haven. And this might be something that also could become a recipe in the future where the recipe is a starter. That's also client showable from day one, where you integrate parts for example, your documentation center that pulls data from your digital asset management system or, or something, or your ERP system or something like that.

John: So, going back to kind of that new idea of Drupal site templates do you see Web Haven kind of fitting into that ecosystem in, in some way in the future where you might have like a, I don't know, a paid site template that's running Web Haven?

Fons: So I hope web Haven will be one of the popular Drupal site templates that people love and trust to build their Drupal solutions with.

I'll give it everything to try and accomplish that. So after the release of Web Haven, I am. Thinking about working on solutions for different niches, because then I can show the strength of Web Haven and I can make pre-made solutions for, for example, real estate agents, public services, landscapers, you name it.

And people can then use that as a starting point to work on for their clients. But I don't see it as a template that you just buy and put online. You still put in your magic. So you put in your effort and you just focus on what you wanna focus and not setting up the Drupal, make sure the meta attacks are right, get it in the right atmosphere visually.

So I think there's a, there's a big market for that.

John: Hmm.

Nic: So. One thing we haven't talked about yet, which I think is probably kind of important, is what is the current roadmap current business plan for Web Haven? I, I imagine you are, you know, you're doing this partially outta your love for Dral, but you're also, it sounds like you're doing it for business.

Are you selling access to the templates? You're like, what's the business plan? How can people support you if they're, they're interested?

Fons: So I'm still thinking about that, but I think the best way will be to sell Web Haven. So what I'm thinking about the most for the near future, first I have to finish the Drupal Canvas integration and launch my version one.

Then I'm thinking, so I see Web Haven as a tool, but I think it won't accomplish what I wanted to accomplish without a Web Haven Academy. So. Hmm. I think that's the co the combination of both. So I have the tool and I make the academy that that combination could be something unique, okay. Where I make and offer snackable learning materials and help people get the most out of Drupal.

So it'll be two sides, get the most out of Drupal, and then also get the most out of Web Haven with Drupal. So that's something that I want to devote more time to, to, to help grow Drupal and spread the message. And then next to that, I also wanna devote more time to the introduction of a AI in Web Haven and two parts for builders.

So I'm already looking at ways where AI knows how Web Haven works better and how to build on top of it, for example. Create new components. So when you use an agent, it can help you to build a frictionless on top of Web Haven while you as a developer remain in the driver's seat. So for me, that's really important.

It has to help you, but you still have to know what's going on. You, you will still need to be able to, to review, but I want the developer to focus on the cool stuff and not on the, the hazardous, boring stuff. And then next to that, so for the builders ai, but also for content creators, where LLMs help you set up page structures and guide you with SEO.

So a content creator can really focus on the content and not everything around it. So, for example, for me, when I have to make a post and an LLM helps me with the structure. For me, it's a lot easier and faster to write the content myself than I have to come up with a decent structure. So it really enables people to move faster and reduce friction.

So that's, that's mostly what's in the roadmap for me and what I wanna work on.

Nic: When you say structure, you, you mean like choosing, okay, this is gonna be a paragraph component, and this is gonna be an image component. Then this is gonna be a two column component. Like, you mean like you're letting the, you're offloading that decision and you're just gonna writing the content or did you mean something else?

Fons: Yeah, I'm thinking about, so, you prompt Web Haven and say, I wanna make a blog post about this, or I wanna sell a product that's this and it gives you two or three page options with structures pre-made, and you then use one and fill it out. And then, but that won't be in the near future. It's also something that's probably really hard, but it interests me is that the page, once it's live, based on the feedback from users and analytics, that it also starts to tell you what could improve on the page based on what's going on or how people are reading it.

So it self improves.

John: Okay.

Fons: But that's a different beast to tackle, but also really interesting stuff.

John: So you mentioned kind of at the top of the show that there are a lot, there are a lot of like kind of prepackaged recipes with Web Haven. I'm wondering, what, what recipe slash features is Web Haven kind of providing out of the box?

I think you had mentioned an SEO recipe. Obviously it has this, this component library with it, but are there any other standouts that are are really, really set it apart from, from some of the other solutions out there?

Fons: So now I'm more focusing on the, the basics. Mm-hmm. So, the base site settings block events, showcase and, and showcase.

You can put projects, success stories, really showcase your work. Stuff that I'm thinking about and will probably be, will be optional is, for example, the documentation center that I'm creating now for Web Haven and that's live on the website. That could be an interesting recipe, but. I would like to make it so that you can also talk to the documentation so you can prompt it so nobody reads documentation.

And I think in the beginning I'll get a lot of support requests because people don't treat the documentation even though it's in there. And I think if people can prompt the documentation, it'll be the same like asking me. So it'll lower the the need for me to reply. And people will also have their answer faster.

So like I think in that space,

John: so like an AI enabled documentation, chatbot sort of thing.

Fons: But it only knows about my documentation or what I tell it, so it won't hallucinate because it, it doesn't know about anything else.

Nic: I, I would just say it won't hallucinate as much, as much. I can still hallucinate.

John: Yeah. Yeah. But so I actually saw a really interesting I think it was at Drupal GovCon this past year. I saw an interesting talk about setting up a Amazon knowledge base. So, what does that Amazon Bedrock, I think it is, does that, does that sound right? So setting up a knowledge base with your own documentation and links, and then using that to power the Drupal Chat bot.

Yes. Super interesting. Like, that sort of, that sort of level for like a a, a support bot feels, like, feels like it would be, it would be really interesting and, and really useful to, you know, the greater community to see another example of something like that in, in the wild. So, yeah, that definitely sounds very

Fons: cool.

Yeah. Well, at the moment I'm looking at open source solutions to run the Vector database and also make sure that it can integrate with Search API. So search API is amazing. So for example, I always use Fast Auto Complete together with Search API or Facets, and if I have an open source database that you can run yourself if you like, or you can, you can ask someone else to do it.

I would probably first focus on an open source solution and then maybe go to the more commercial services. But also, it depends on what people will ask me. If, if, if no one, I don't wanna, my biggest fear is to create something that no one will care about. I would rather have people that hate it or like it than people are like, nah, I don't care about it.

Yeah.

Nic: You, you, you subscribe to the, I, this is two weeks in a row that I'm gonna talk about this, but mark Rosewater, the head designer Magic says that in order for a product to be successful, it's more important that some people love it. Even if some people hate it than somebody, than everybody would be like, eh, that's okay.

Yeah, totally. If, if it's, if nobody has passion for your project, it's better to have a small amount of people with significant passion for your project than have something that's just, has mediocre passion because people, people fight for stuff that they love for and that can help make a product successful.

Martin: Yeah, totally. I did wanna, quickly chime in on that question of having an open source solution for vector storage. So I do know that newer versions of solar can actually do vector storage and Kevin Quillan earlier this year released a Drupal module for search API that allows it to use solar for vector storage.

So that could be kind of a drop in solution for what you're talking about as well.

John: Question on that because if it's doing the vector storage and in again, might not know the answer 'cause I'm putting you on the spot, but can you then tie that into like Drupal AI to use that with the chat, like chat bot to use that as kind of like the, the rag for that.

Martin: Is that a question for me?

John: Yeah, I mean, I guess 'cause you, because you brought up the, the solar. That's fair. So solar is a vector.

Martin: Yeah. Yeah. S so I, I've only had a chance to really talk briefly with Kevin about this. And from what I understand, he was using it more to kind of improve the relevance of search results.

So I don't know to what extent, it's kind of like a full blown solution that could be on par with like a pine cone or some of the, you know, more dedicated commercial solutions out there. But you know, maybe, maybe we could have Kevin on the show sometime to talk to us about it

John: if only we knew how to do that.

No, I'm kidding. We're, I'm gonna add it. I'm add it in now for.

Martin: So funds you mentioned earlier in the show about, you know, some of the development process that you have around kind of testing recipes. I'm curious if there's anything you could share with the listeners around the process that you use for actually creating the recipes. Are there particular tools that might be useful to people that are interested in going down that path of creating recipes of their own?

Fons: Yeah, so I saw one tool a modular oui that takes a lot of configuration and then you can create recipes from it. But I took the decision not to go that way because then you have bloat and you need to cut away the stuff you don't want. And for, for web for me, it felt like I didn't, was in control.

So. I'm doing it the, the hard way. So really cherry picking, it felt in the beginning, like that was the slower and harder way to do it. But it also gave a better understanding for me and how stuff works. And now that I've started to work like this, I feel like it's really speeding up the process, but I haven't found a silver bullet on how to do it fast.

Nic: Oh yeah.

Fons: So if, if someone knows how to do it faster than I'm doing it now so no, I don't know of a better way to do it then cherry picking and seeing what works and what doesn't. So yeah, its, it's not easy.

Nic: I mean, yeah, we, we, we really need the features like interface where you can kind of select a piece and, and, john, when you make a recipe, I will, I will entertain. I, I started,

John: when recipes first came out, I started trying to make my own recipe and it was not easy. I do agree, but like,

Nic: oh, was that a, I couldn't tell if you were, you were grunting an agreement or opposition.

John: I was, I was grunting in the reference of features.

Any, anytime somebody references features, I immediately fe Yeah. Feature recoil. Because I don't love, I don't love that implementation, but I feel like we do probably need some sort of utility for Yeah. For creating recipes

Nic: either. Yeah. Yeah. We, we need a way to kind of reference existing configuration, hitting a box, deciding if you wanted to select everything dependent on it or not.

John: That was by way, the hardest part was like, oh, I need to, I need this config. Well, there are five different changes here. Do I need all of them? Do I need a subset of them? Which ones do I need? Yeah. And

Nic: you have to pull the UIDs, you have to move them to actions. Like there's, there's so many, you have to not forget the display modes.

Yep. There, there's a lot.

Fons: The, the more I work with it now manually, the more I realize how hard it is to just make UI that, because now creating a recipe, the best way that I found is to just think about it. When I'm not behind my computer, I go out for a run and I, and I think about it and I'm like, okay, it has this and this and this piece, and then I just execute it when I'm behind the computer.

But, Hmm. Yeah. It's, it's, it's not a straightforward process, although it doesn't feel like that for me at the moment, but. Or

Nic: probably we just need a couple. We just need a couple of super recipe builders that you can hire and say, I need a recipe that does X, Y, z.

Martin: Well, it's funny actually because Drupal ci, if folks remember that, used to actually have a command in there that could export configuration and it would sort of find the dependencies and sort of, you could specify, say like just this content type, but then you could sort of, you know, put together the different things pretty easily that way.

I think again, Kevin Quillin might have done a command line utility at one point that that could do a similar thing I think early in this early stages for us. 'cause I'm not sure off the top of my head how well maintained that is at this point. But yeah, there's definitely a few solutions out there, so it'll be interesting to see if one of them sort of, gets traction.

The other thing that's maybe worth mentioning there is, as far as I know, still an issue on the features module sound effects provided by John around. Having features basically become the UI for exporting recipes. Yeah. And,

John: and to be fair, if, if features were morphed into this, this magic recipe utility, I think I'd be okay with it.

That's literally all I was

Nic: saying.

John: My big, we just need ui. My biggest, my bi my biggest gripe with features was just the, the module creation. Again, going back to that whole point of just creating a bunch of modules to, to like, you know, for random things in your Drupal site, it, it, I dunno, it drove me nuts, but I guess there's a use use case for it somewhere.

Nic: Yeah. So funds any, any final thoughts you'd like to share about what we could look forward to from Web Haven before we kind of close out the show?

Fons: No. So, like I said. I'm working towards the launch, so if people wanna get notified when it launches, you can sign up on the Web Haven website. Also, if people have feed, there's already a demo website up and running if you have feedback on that.

If you wanna reach out and talk about a topic, I'm really open to that. So just reach out and I'd love to talk to you about Web Haven or Drupal.

John: Awesome. Awesome. Phans, thanks so much for joining us.

Nic: Thanks for having me. Do you have questions or feedback? You can reach out to talking Drupal on the socials with the handle talking Drupal or by email we [email protected].

You can connect with our hosts and other listeners on the Drupal Slack in the Talking Drupal channel.

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You can learn more about becoming a [email protected] and choosing become a Patron.

John: Alright, Fonza folks wanted to get in touch with you. How best could they go about doing that?

Fons: They can reach out on x if you search Fons, Fama, or LinkedIn. If you search Fama, you can go to my personal website, fons fama.com, or you can go to web haven.io.

It's up to you. I would love to, and there will be

John: a link in the show notes. Thanks. Perfect. Martin, what about you?

Martin: Folks can find me as mandclu on all of the Drupal and social platforms.

John: Fabulous s Nick.

Nic: You can find me pretty much everywhere at nicxvan, N-I-C-X-V-A-N,

John: and I'd like to thank our listeners for another great year of talking Drupal.

This will be our, our last episode for the year. We look forward to coming back in 2026 with some, some great topics, some new guests and do doing this all over again for, for another year. I'm John Picozzi solutions architect at EPAM. You can find me personally at picozzi.com. You can find out more about EPAM at epam.com

And Martin,

Martin: if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking. Happy holidays, everyone. See you next year.