Talking Drupal #533 - The At-Large Board Seat

Martin: This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design and development from a group of people with one thing in common. We love Drupal. This is episode number 5 33, the at large board seat. On today's show, we are talking about the Drupal at large board seat, what the job entails, and some common misconceptions with guest Faye Lauren.

We'll also cover token Browser as our module of the week. Welcome to Talking Drupal. Our guest today is Faye Lauren. Faye is a digital nomad from the west coast of British Columbia. After a decade as a Drupal developer, they now work with multidisciplinary enterprise engineering teams to streamline processes and architect scalable automation systems.

Having recently finished their tenure on the Drupal Association Board of Directors, they're excited to bring that knowledge back to their work in the community and beyond. Faye, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us for the last four weeks.

Fei: Thank you. So good to be here.

Martin: I'm Martin Anderson-Clutz, a principal solutions engineer at Acquia.

And now to talk about our module of the week, let's turn it over to Nic Laflin, founder at nLightened Development and maintainer of a number of Drupal modules and core subsystems of a zone. Nick, what do you have for us this week?

Nic: Happy to be here. I'm very excited about this. It's been a long time since I've done module of the week.

I am going to stick to your format 'cause it's so much better than what we used to do back when I used to do it. So have you ever wanted an improved token browser that loads quickly and doesn't have a depth limit? There's a module for that token browser. Was created last month in November of 2025 by Andy Marquee, also known as apmsooner.

He was on episode 5 0 5 to talk about custom field. There's currently a version 1.0 0.0, which works with Drupal Core 11.3 or newer. It is actively maintained, it has security coverage and test coverage, and has only two open issues, one of which is a bug. It's only used by three websites so far, since it is brand new the token browser module provides a rebuilt version of the standard token browser you might be used to.

One of the most notable features is it only renders the first level during the initial request and then requests deeper levels as needed using the latest HTMX improvements in Drupal Core 11.3. It's worth noting that the initial version requires an alternative theme function to be attached to form elements when you want to allow the new token browser to work.

So it doesn't actually replace the standard version just yet. Also, there seems to be an issue where the HTMX library doesn't fully load on cached pages. There's an open issue for that that looks like there's already a fix in the works. Finally, this module is similar to an older module called Fast Token Browser, but that module was never updated to work with versions newer than triple seven.

It relied on jQuery for its Ajax functionality. And one of the other key features of this module is there's no limit to the depth. So the current people may know, this may or may not know this, but the current default token browser, I don't know how deep you can go, but it's not as, you know, there's a limit to it.

But because this is using HTMX, I think there's no limit. You can just continually load load down the tree. So let's talk about token browser.

Martin: Yeah, I thought this one was really interesting because it's pretty cool to see already in the contrib space modules that are really making use of that new HTMX.

Capability that's available in the most recent version of, of Drupal. So anybody who wants to sort of get a firsthand flavor of some of the, the new experiences that are possible, having something like this to sort of take that for a spin, I think is, is pretty interesting.

Nic: Yeah, I've been following this module kind of closely.

I, I think it came out of Andy was Buil was contributing to the token module itself. Helping update it to be a little bit, you know, to modernize some pieces of it and wanted to explore using HTMX and Verde, who's kind of the main maintainer of token be because Token is used by so many sites, kind of takes a very conservative approach to maintenance, similar to core itself, right?

He follows similar BC guidelines and disruption guidelines and things. So, and he supports a lot of versions of Drupal. And so, I think Andy created this initially as a way to just. Be able to more quickly iterate and get a working version of it. Who knows if it'll live on or if we'll get merged into token at some point.

But I, I think it's pretty interesting. It's one of those things where it's not often that you need the depth that this would allow because the, you know, the, the tokens work, no matter how deep you go, you just can't browse them past four or five levels. But when you do need it, it's very, very tedious to figure out those levels manually.

So I think this will be I think this will, as people get onto 1.3, it'll get adopted pretty quickly. It, it's a pretty cool module, I think.

Martin: Yeah, and I think it'll also be interesting to see if eventually this does make its way into the main token module, so maybe eventually this won't be needed as a separate project.

But, you know, as you say, I think as people move into 11.3, this is probably something they'll find pretty useful.

Nic: It might also, one thing I'd be interested to see is if it can fix a lot of the accessibility issues. One of, one of the reasons that Token itself isn't in core just yet is, I mean, there's a couple reasons, but one of the big ones is the token browser's not really accessible.

And it's very, very difficult to make accessible, if I understand it correctly. But maybe if with some more modern tools and with HTMX and some other things that are now available, we, maybe we can make it accessible and just get it into core directly.

Martin: Well, the, the other issue that is open in the issue queue for token browser is specifically about this sort of UI element.

And I know there's been some work on kind of making it more keyboard navigable and, and some other things. So definitely feels like, you know, this could be a place where some of that accessibility work, you know, gets done in a space that, that won't impact so many people relying on the standard token module today and, and could eventually make its way back.

And then, as you say, maybe, maybe that helps it to make you know, the core functionality of token into, to Drupal core itself or something along those lines as well. Yeah, makes sense. Well, Nick, thanks for bringing us a very interesting module of the week. I know you were initially. Nominated this, but also I had Andy reach out to me directly as well.

So if any of our listeners want to suggest a module of the week or just reach out about potential candidates, what's a good way for them to get in touch with you?

Nic: Thanks, Martin. So listeners, if you wanna suggest a module of the week or just connect, you can reach out on the Drupal Slack in the talking Drupal channel, or well, you can, you can send modular suggestions to me, but it's probably better some of Martin at Mandclu as well.

Martin: Thanks, Nic. Now on to our primary topic. So, Faye, for listeners who may not be familiar, what is the Drupal Association at Large Board Seed?

Fei: Oh that's a good starting question. So. The, the Drupal Association Board of Directors actually has two types of seats. One is handled by the nomination committee, and the other is actually elected by the community.

And so these two seats are really important. There are two, two of them. And it, it's really important because the community gets to have a voice about who is actually representing their views and their needs on the board of directors. So the at large board seat is, is one of the two seats that you can self nominate for.

And if the community decides to vote for you, then you're on the board.

Nic: So how I'm gonna diverge immediately from our show notes and, and ask a question. So do you think that those, that's enough representation from the community on the board, do you think there should be more than one at large?

Fei: So there's two, there are two, and each each is two years, and then they alternate.

So the new at large board member has an

Nic: opportunity. I, I knew there were two. I, sorry. I, I meant, is two enough? But Yeah, same question, but updated to two. Is two enough? Is two enough representation from the community? Should there be more voices? Or like, is there, did you, did you feel like there was too much to do for the two of you?

Because I think you were serving with Alex Moreno, right? Alejandro Moreno, right.

Fei: Alex and and Nikki Flores for my first year. Okay. Oof. I wanna actually, I mean, that's an interesting question. That might be a bigger conversation because I think that there's a persp, there's like this, this perception that the board is maybe a lot bigger than it actually is.

And, and this is, this is something that I'm hoping to kind of like. Clarify a little bit today because a lot of the time people come to me and they're like, well, why isn't the board doing this? I'm like, hold on, there's only 12 of us. You know, there, there actually aren't that many. And so to have 10 nominated board members and, and the nomination committee is very, very intentional about making sure that, that there is diversity among those 10.

And then two community elected people like it. It actually does feel like a decent balance to me. And I also wanna see that the, the community members that at large board members are very much respected as equals. I never ever felt like, like I was less than or, or, or treated any differently because I was elected versus nominated.

Okay.

Nic: Good to know. So. What are the core responsibilities of somebody who is that large board member, you know, on a day-to-day or month to month basis? Like what, what are you in charge of?

Fei: That's a good question. So, you know, it, it really is what you make it. If you wanna show up and do the bare minimum or, you know, even if you need to do the bare minimum for a short period of time, what that looks like is there are quarterly board meetings with, you know, agendas and, and topics that we are discussing, presenting, voting on.

And so it, it is your responsibility to be able to be informed, your research, understand what, what we are working on as a board and what we're discussing as a board, and be able to vote or speak at least to most of the topics to. Some level of, of just having an informed perspective. But the majority of the work, the majority of the exciting work actually happens in working groups and so on.

D oh, you can find all kinds of information about what working groups we have. And I was heavily involved in the DrupalCon working group. And so I was the chair for a bit and then I handed off to another board member to take over. And so a lot of the work that I did both sort of day-to-day, week to week, month to month was focused on that.

And then I was able to kind of communicate the, the high level notes and the progress and if there's anything to vote on that would happen in the quarterly board meetings. For an at large board member. I'm also really involved in the community. So anytime something comes up that we doesn't sit right in the community or, you know, there's world events or anything in the Drupal community that happens that people have strong opinions about.

A lot of folks reach out to their, at large board members, and you should, because we are there to advocate for you and to support you. And so, you know, some weeks could be really busy and other weeks could be kind of quiet.

Martin: I was gonna ask, in terms of a time commitment, do you have sort of a rough range of, like, on a weekly basis, how much time you were devoting to being a, a large board member?

Both, you know, the, so I guess core board as well as maybe the working group that you were in? Oh,

Fei: I think I may have blocked it out. Honestly. It was a lot of work at times. It was a lot of work at times. So I would say that because the Drupal Con working, the, the future of Drupal Con Working Group was brand new when I joined.

And so I showed up, they were like, welcome to the board. By the way. You're gonna be the chair. You understand the community, here's the staff member you're working with, have at her. And I was like, okay, this is a lot to do, a lot to learn. I don't, that's not normal. That's not necessarily the, the thing that happens for every single person.

So, you know, there was a lot of learning in my first year and it, and it, it, I don't, I don't know how many hours but I would say in my second year, once things settled the, the the weekend, we do re weekend retreats as well, I forgot to mention. So there's a full weekend before DrupalCon that you go and, and work with all of the other board members and connect with other board members.

That's kind of intensive. And then week to week, an hour or two maybe, something like that.

Nic: So it sounds kind of reasonable throughout the year and then some intense crunch periods.

Yeah. Okay.

So, so it is a commitment. It's not like a. Put your name on the board and don't do anything. And this work can be done.

Fei: But again, it's what you make it. And the reason why I spent so many hours doing it is because I very firmly believe if you're gonna do something, do it. Go all in and give it everything that you have. And so I, I really put a lot of energy into the work and, and understanding the community and advocating.

So, makes sense.

Nic: Yeah.

Martin: Cool. So Faye, you've recently concluded your two year term as a Drupal Association at LA at large board member. Was there any particular experience that was sort of particularly impactful for you personally?

Fei: Yeah well, I mean, yeah, there's a bunch. But maybe this is actually also one of those questions that I'd like to.

Kind of clarify, because there are misconceptions about how if you're on the board, you're gonna show up and you're gonna have these profoundly impactful ideas and change the community or, or the, the Drupal ecosystem as we know it. And it's like, no, actually that's not how it works. There are a lot of initiatives already in motion, a lot of challenges, a lot of objectives that we're already working on as, as a board, as NDA staff.

And so your job is actually to kind of jump in and support, help inform those decisions, help inform the work and, and guide the staff as opposed to bringing a lot of brand new ideas. But having said that, actually the work that I did with with the DrupalCon group, the DrupalCon planning Group, was really important and really.

Meaningful for me because I am very passionate about communication and process and, you know, process architecture. And when I first joined, I was like, oh my goodness, our communication pipeline looks like a ruined spider web. We are solving all the same problems. You, you laugh, but you know, like it because it's real.

We are solving all of the same problems over and over and over again in these silos. And so I, why don't we connect more? Why don't we work together more? Why don't we collaborate more? And so part of the work that we did in the DrupalCon working group was to kind of, to, to make North America the model in North America look a little bit more like the model in Europe.

So we now have a steering committee. I worked really hard to find amazing people and I'm so. Proud of the contributions of each of the people who, who joined the very first North American Steering Committee because that was a lot of work. And they're phenomenal humans who have done amazing work. So I'm really proud of that.

I'm really proud of them. I'm really proud of, of the, of the work that has been done globally. So you'll notice there's a more conversation about DrupalCon Asia, maybe some DrupalCon Latin America that I may or may not be involved in. And, and there's also a global executive committee now. So we have members from each region getting together I believe quarterly.

And they're gonna be discussing all of the things that they're working on individually and, and collaborating as a global community. And so we're gonna have a lot less of that solving problems in silos for each region. And so things like this, I think are. Kind of invisible and maybe a little bit more nuanced to explain, but they feel really important to me,

Nic: is, is that gonna trickle down maybe to like local camps?

Because as a camp organizer, I see a bunch of a camps try to collaborate in a similar way. Not so much maybe with steering communities, that kind of thing, but like figuring out what pieces can be shared, figuring, like sharing lessons learned. And I, I feel like maybe having a framework, a better framework to like communicate between camps would be really useful.

Is that, is that something that you guys on the board ever talked about or?

Fei: Yes. I was less involved in specifically working with local associations and camps. That was a different working group. Oh. But also really important. They made some really good momentum. Unfortunately. Times are a bit tough.

We've had to do some reduction in staffing which is very sad. And so, you know, there isn't as much momentum in, in some of that work as, as we had initially, but it's still really important for, for the board, of course, to be connecting with local associations, to be connecting with local camps and to be working together.

And so, yes, I hope, I really hope that we're able to make more, more progress in that area too, in the future. Good to know.

Nic: So as your, oh, when did your term actually end? When, when was the date?

Fei: Technically November 1st or October 30. Okay.

Nic: First is when we, okay. So couple, couple months ago month and a half ago.

So now, now that your first term has ended, what are some things you kind of wish you had known when you first started that would've maybe set you up for more success or set you up to. Get started sooner. It sounds like you kind of thrown into it, which may not be normal, but what are some things you wish you knew when you guys started?

Fei: I mean, I think it is normal to kind of get thrown into it a little bit, but think I really got thrown into it because if you ask me to do something, I'm kind of pretty, pretty enthusiastic. So I'll usually say yes if bandwidth allows. The one thing that I didn't really quite understand that really changed things is the CEO actually works for the board.

And so, you know, I think maybe, maybe this is an easier concept to grasp if you're sort of an agency owner or a business owner. I'm like a delivery manager, process architect. You know, I'm not a C-suite person and so this is a little bit more difficult for me to adjust to where I'm like, whoa. Wait, the CEO works for me.

Oh. And I didn't really understand what this meant. And so when I first started, I think that I was kind of expecting that somebody would give me instructions. Like I was, I was waiting for somebody to tell me what I needed to be doing and maybe some idea of how to do it. And then I, and then I, when I realized, oh, wait, that's not how it works.

I'm, I'm the one who's, who's driving this. It's up to me to, to define how this is gonna work and how we're gonna be collaborating here. And so I think when I, when I understood that subtle kind of nuance of no, the CEO works for you, and, and your opinion and your perspective and your experience in community is really important.

And that is why you get to have your voice representing the community. Hmm. That really changed things for me because it really helped make me feel a lot more confident in, in what I was doing on the board, if that makes sense.

Martin: Yeah, I think that makes sense. So how does the at large board member represent the broader Drupal community and who are they accountable to?

Fei: Ooh, accountability. I love this question. I mean, I, I believe that, you know, we're, we're elected by the community, so we should be accountable to the community. In practice there's also a balance because each board member is accountable. To other board members as well. We've made certain agreements to sort of, you know, Robert's rules and, and, and we've made certain agreements to respect each other's specific opinions and to not disclose certain things that we've agreed should be kept private.

So there's a, there's a balance. On one hand we are accountable to the community, individuals in the community, and on the other hand, we are accountable to the Drupal Association Board of Directors and the work that we are doing together and the reputation that we're building. But for me, of course, community is always so important.

So, yeah, I always care a lot about how people are feeling about my, my work and how I can support them more effectively.

Nic: So it, it sounds like a lot of the actual individual work is depe, like what your responsibility is, depends on what kind of working group you get assigned to, or I assume there's some option to volunteer for as well. Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like the quarterly meetings are a little bit more kind of a group work, you know, voting on specific agendas and probably bringing up points.

Are there particular decisions or initiatives that the at large board seats are typically kind of expected to have the most influence on? Or obviously community related questions, that's the whole point of which you're representing, but is there anything that maybe was a little unexpected like that they turned to the at large board seats for?

Fei: Oh you know, I think that. It. Well, it's interesting that when we actually get together, board members are so amazingly good at listening to each other's perspectives and sort of, if you have the subject matter expertise and you wanna share your perspective, people listen. And so when it comes down to it, anytime there are discussions or challenges or decisions we need to make, we all, we all listen to each other.

And it's not just the community perspective, because community doesn't just mean individuals. Business owners are part of the community too. You know, agencies are part of the community too. If you're from an enterprise business and like, I'm actually if you're from an enterprise business and you, and you wanna participate, you are community.

It's the whole ecosystem.

Nic: Yeah. It makes sense.

Fei: And so, I would say. I mean, the reason that I ended up in the DrupalCon working group is because I am already so connected. But yeah, I think we all listen to each other and, and we all wanna make sure that those diverse perspectives that we work so hard to have on the board are heard equally.

Yeah.

Nic: So how, how, you said there's quarterly check-ins or quarterly meetings. How long are those meetings then is with 13 people-Ish, I think on the board. Mm-hmm. I imagine there's a lot, I know there's a lot of ground to cover, I'm sure. How long are those, the voting sessions or what, I don't know what you call 'em, I guess the quarterly check-ins.

Fei: Yeah. So, you know, quarterly meetings, there are two virtual. And those meetings, I believe, I wanna say are two hours, an hour and a half, two hours. And what the meeting looks like is we're sharing the highlights from the work that we've done in that quarter. Each working group presents their updates if there's anything to vote.

And so it's, you know, it's not nearly as exciting as the, the sort of the workshops and the in-person conversations that we have when we are getting together for the weekend before DrupalCon. And then the other board meetings are public, so you can come join them and see what that's all about there at that DrupalCon.

Nic: Okay.

Fei: Very cool.

Martin: So Fei, you mentioned the importance of having kind of the, the community input and, and really that's what you felt accountable to. Was there a particular way that you saw being able to sort of get that community input and in particular making sure that kind of diverse voices were, were being heard that it wasn't kind of a vocal minority that was driving the agenda?

Fei: Hmm. You used a term that I would love to, I'd love to talk vocal minority. There's a, there's often a perspective among the board, among board members and you know, da staff that certain issues that I wanted to advocate for, wanted to sort. Amplify as being important for us. We're actually just part of a vocal, like, you know, there's a vocal minority who cares about these things.

And, and the truth is we don't always express ourselves very clearly. And so, you know, having said this, I would love to ask people, if you feel strongly about something, please share that feedback. Go on Slack, go in the Drupal Association slack channel and just say, Hey, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot.

I'm wondering what other people think, or I want the board to know, I want the DA to know that a lot of us are talking about this. And that actually helps me so much because then it's visible and then I'm able to kind of, you know, point at it and say, here are the things that the community is saying.

Here are the other areas where people are vocalizing the same concerns. And so a lot of it is organic. But, but you know, there are staff members who might get very frustrated if they ever hear me say data or metrics or surveys ever again because I, I am like, we, you know, you might think that you have a very strong sense of, you know, the values in the community as a whole and then you put a survey out and you are so wrong.

And so my perspective is still incredibly biased. And, and so anytime there is an important decision to be made, especially, you know, within Drupal Con organization we've gotta ask people. And so I think surveys are, are something that. Are so undervalued. It's really difficult to put together a good survey, but it's so important to, to get that data and make sure that we have yeah, as just as unbiased as possible when we're making decisions.

Nic: It, it's also tricky too, because not everybody fills out surveys. So, yeah, especially when it comes to the term vocal minority, you know, the vocal minority is one of the ones that are likely to fill our survey as well. So sometimes finding out what sometimes it's a matter of making a change and then getting pushed back and, you know, understanding that that's part of the process too, because a lot of people won't say anything until it affects them.

Even if you ask them time and time again to review something. I, and that happens with clients too. Like, you show something to a client for review, you talk them through the pro, you know, the new feature, whatever, over and over. You have multiple meetings, multi month, long process. You release it and the next day like, you know what, I don't like how this works.

Let's tweak this. You're like, what do you mean? We've talked to 25 people in your company about this. But that's the way it works. Sometimes, you know, sometimes people don't respond until the change is out in front of them. But doing surveys, doing, gathering that information certainly helps make an educated guess.

Yes. In the right direction before before spending time. Right. It can help validate, but yeah.

Yeah, I agree. You don't really, yeah.

And I imagine also for me, I. Just making sure I'm not putting words in your mouth. The vocal minority deserves to be listened to as well. We're not saying that you just set that aside, but you also have to take into account, you know, everybody, everybody's perspective and make sure you kind of gauge volume versus I, I guess what is it spread?

So you know, you know, what people's, what people are thinking.

Fei: Definitely. Well, I mean, it's the community at large. Everyone at large, all of us. Yep. So yeah, definitely, definitely agree. Awesome.

Nic: What, what kind of skills or experience or perspectives would make somebody well suited to consider, you know, maybe running for the out large board seat?

Fei: That is another great question because I would like to emphasize you don't need to be C-suite. You don't need to have, like, you need to be deeply involved in community. That is the number one thing. You have to have your finger on the pulse of community. And there's this perspective that, you know, if you have these really big ideas and you're an agency owner and you wanna change the, change the Drupal ecosystem for agencies, and then you're running for the community at large seat like that's, that's actually not necessarily, it's not, not a no, but you know, that's not necessarily what that seat is for.

And so I, I really want people to hear me when I tell you that, you know, the, the thing that qualifies you is, is caring about the community. Beyond that, of course, really good communication skills. Maybe I'm biased in this because I really value. Learning about communication and getting better at communication, really good communication skills.

Patients' willingness to kind of listen and empathize with other perspectives because if you can't sit down and listen to somebody who, who has a perfectly valid reason why they disagree with you, and then figure out how to kind of like empathize with them, you're never gonna be able to come to a meaningful middle ground and move things forward.

So, willingness to kind of collaborate and be patient and empathize and communicate with community about sometimes sensitive issues. Like we are a very passionate community. We are very invested in Drupal, and when something feels like it's threatening to change our community as we know and love it people can, can get.

They get, they get really big feelings for very good reasons. And Me too. We all do.

Yeah.

And so it's also about being able to communicate things back to them in a way that is gonna land in a compassionate and meaningful but supportive, reassuring way.

Nic: So, I, so this kind of goes back to one of the earlier questions. 'Cause it sounds like I, I mean, I kind of expected this, but you're confirming, it sounds like there's a lot of compromise, right? And sometimes some difficult decisions to be made. As a board member, do you have any advice for somebody coming in on maybe how to, how to handle that, how to set their expectations?

Because you can't please everybody. How do you, how do you kind of. With that, that you're making the right decision, I guess, or Right. You're, you're putting out the right information.

Fei: Hmm. I mean, I very firmly believe that we do the best that we can with the tools that we have and the information that we have in the moment.

It's okay to be wrong and, and, you know, I think personally in many situations, I would rather try my best not be perfect and then own my mistakes, than say nothing and not have any impact or not start any conversations or, you know, I, I I don't know. But that's, that's my perspective. I don't know if everybody necessarily agrees.

I personally think that leading with vulnerability, and speaking up and just owning the fact that, you know, sometimes we don't get to be sure of ourselves and we just get to, to do the best that we can. I guess it really depends on what the situation is as well. 'Cause if you take that too far, you can also do damage, so, you know, time and a place.

But

Nic: yeah, I mean, it's a difficult question, especially with, you know, not even a, a hypothetical backing it, but I, I mean, I think, I think it's one of the things to consider. I, I imagine this is true. I've never been on a board of any sort, but, you know, you charged with looking forward, right? And you don't know.

Nobody knows what the future holds. And in a lot of cases, I think it's more dangerous to not make a decision or not make a change. Like a lot of companies, you see this with a lot of legacy companies that have closed down over the years, like. They could have changed course at some point, but sometimes it's easier to just do the same thing you've always been doing rather than, you know, make a change.

And, you know, theres is on the board, not, not everything that he does is board related, but, you know, with Star Shot, with Drupal CMS, with Canvas, with what's the latest one? Site templates, the marketplace, like AI Initiative became AI initiative. It became clear that if Drupal just continued the way it was going it would continue the way it was going and something needed to change.

Who knows if any of these things were the right decision, you know, we'll take years to find that out, but doing nothing is definitely the wrong decision. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I think, I think taking risks sometimes is, is important for a. Yeah, I can't imagine that all those decisions are easy as a board member.

Fei: Yeah. I mean that's, that's true. And you also have to put your own personal opinions aside. Even when you have community members coming up and they don't like what the board is doing, you sort of just listen and hold your opinion. Because when you're a board member and you're in community representing the board, it's not about you as an individual.

Mm-hmm. It's the community as a whole. It's about Drupal as a whole. It's about the work that we're doing together. And that doesn't mean to, that you have to lie and say, I love this idea. I think it's the best thing ever. But, but it is still, it's still important to, to be representing the board all the time.

Right. So, you know that, that can be tricky. But I wanna, I wanna add something onto that. And, you know, there's also. Especially in the diversity and inclusion in initiative and that kind of ecosystem when community has strong feelings about something that is value-based. There, there is a thing that I learned, there's something very important that I learned about the board and, and that is that the board members actually really, really, really do care.

They really care. And I know that sometimes it seems like they might not, because either maybe board members don't know how to talk about certain, like, nuanced issues or they don't want to talk about those certain nuanced issues because because they're sensitive or whatever the reason is. But there is this perception that because.

People are not openly talking about it and, and having big conversations with community as a whole about some of these nuanced value-based issues. It means that they must not care. Or sometimes the community doesn't see the action that is happening. Just because we don't see it or it's not being communicated in, in a way that's really clear to, to everybody, does not mean that people do not care.

And, and I think that this is really important to remember because as a community member, when you are starting these conversations in the Drupal Association, slack I think it's really important that we, that we start those conversations with the mentality that the people who are reading it actually do care about the things that you have to say and are, are willing to have those conversations.

But if you show up with this attitude that, that, you know. The board doesn't care and, and we have to convince them or, or you know, you show up with that kind of charged energy. It's not really inviting a collaborative conversation. Yeah. And so it's really important to re to remember this, we're, we're all human beings.

We are all volunteers. We are all doing the best that we can for the community as a whole. Which, you know,

Nic: yeah,

Fei: it's all of us. It's all of us business owners, individuals, community organizers, like we're all in this together.

Nic: So the Drupal community is large, it's global, it's diverse.

How, how much of the community would you say is kind of plugged into what the board is doing? Like how, how much of the community would say, reaches out to somebody. On the board board to discuss a situation or knows what decisions were made or what votes were made. Because I'll be honest, I don't follow the board super closely.

I mean, I, I get the highlights usually from Martin or John. But you know, how, how much of the community do you think is plugged in? Is it a sizable amount? Is it,

Fei: that's a really great question. I would love to see some data and metrics. So, you know, I can only, I can only answer this question as a Canadian, and, and so, you know, especially in the last year or so, I have gone full nomad and so I've been traveling a lot more and learning a lot more about European community, Latin American community the community in Asia, a little less, I haven't made it that far, but the, the, what I see.

What I, what I am able to sort like my reach is, is unavoidably going to be kind of tied to the languages I speak, where I live, the time zones I'm in, the, the specific communities I'm in. And so I really tried very hard at every opportunity to kind of remind people in the North American space to say like, Hey, let's also connect with Europe and, and Asia and Africa, and we really need to talk to Latin America too.

Like we really need to be global. And it feels, again, 'cause I am in North America, so it always feels like the North American perspective is, is bigger. But yeah, I mean, I, I don't, I don't know, I Europe, of course. Of course is, is very connected, very active. There's been some amazing work, especially recently.

You know, kind of with DrupalCon in, in Asia has been fantastic, I think for really Yeah. Shining a light on community there and how big and, and diverse and robust and active it, it really is. So, it's hard to say.

Nic: I don't answer that question. Speaking of surveys the, the annual, was it the Drupal developer survey that Mike puts together?

I mean, a couple years ago showed the explosive growth in what Japan, and I think that's one of the reasons why the Drupal cons in Asia really started getting a lot of a lot of steam behind them. It's been, what, three, three years, two years that there's been in a row? Yeah, definitely two in a row.

Yeah. Tara. And

Fei: is it public knowledge where the next one is in Asia? I,

Nic: I don't think so. So probably, well

Fei: stay tuned. This is another challenge of being a board member is sometimes you have information you are not meant to share. And it's hard for me to remember what those things. Yeah.

Nic: I, I one of the podcasts that I listened to, and I've mentioned this before, is drive to Work.

It's Mark Rosewater. He is the head designer for Magic The Gathering. Okay. And so he, one of the things that he talks about a lot, he's very, very passionate about what he does and he loves talking about it. But one of the things people may not know is that game they design three or three or four years in the future, I think.

So when he finishes a design, it's two years before it sees shelves. It's shelves. And so he has to always have that running, like, okay, I am, he's working seven, seven releases ahead of. What he can talk about. And so he said, yeah, he is like, you always have to kind of keep in mind what you can say and what you can't, but when you are allowed to talk about it, it's the most exciting day in the world because you've been waiting so long.

Maybe not the same timelines for you guys, but kind of a similar thing.

Fei: Sometimes I have to check like myself, I'm like, oh, should I be saying this? Hang on. Yeah. No, it's okay. It's okay. No, this was announced last week. It's fine. Yeah.

Martin: I guess on, on that note, Faye, is there an example of a particularly challenging or complex issue that an at large board member might expect to face?

Fei: Yes. Representing and advocating for community. We have an incredibly strong. Product. We have an incredibly strong ecosystem. We are what we are today because we are built on this, this really beautiful foundation of values. And so, you know, we have we, we, I mentioned before that when things feel like they are decisions that are, that are kind of deviating from those values or things happen in the community that feels in conflict with those values.

People have very strong feeling and rightly so. They should, they should speak up and they should have really strong feelings about these things. But the challenge is that sometimes these decisions, I'm struggling to think of a specific example for you, but. Sometimes these decisions were made from a, from a place of being incredibly informed about the market and Drupal as a product and, you know, the enterprise world or business feedback or whatever it is.

And, and it's really difficult to kind of reconcile those two conversations when you represent the community. And so you have to do your best to make sure that people feel heard and like they're, they're like, values still matter. Our values still matter. And, and so you have to kind of communicate back to people what those conversations sounded like and the things that we weighed.

And, and it can, it can be tough. It can be tough. So.

Nic: I, I would also say to our listeners to keep in mind that, and because it's a volunteer group, because there's so much going on because there's only 13 board members, that these things do take time to, like people, people might expect something to change in a couple of weeks, but unless it's a huge fire, it's probably gonna take six months a year or something for something to really start showing.

Yeah,

Fei: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, it's not always, it's not always as simple when you, when you kind of look under the surface and you look at the budget spreadsheets and who we have on staff who's able to dedicate a certain amount of time to what thing, and it's like if we take on a new initiative or we spend time on a specific issue, we sacrifice something else.

Yeah. So those conversations at the board level, like we're really talking about the bigger picture and how the decisions we make today are gonna impact us years down the road. And we do our best to make the best decision that we can for, you know, Drupal as a whole. 'cause we wanna live to fight another day.

And sometimes that's tough. And as a community member, you can occasionally field a lot of dms about, about issues like this. So.

Nic: So what is the, so you mentioned early on that you kind of expect from the outside looking in before you started, you kind of expected to jump in, have a big initiative, make a huge change, do a, and, and you had an impact.

But if we wanted to level set, what is the impact that you can have in this role on the direction of Drupal for the community and from like a, you know, a technical standpoint, what is the scope of impact?

Fei: Yeah. I mean, again, it is, it is what you make. To be clear, I actually had no specific expectations or, or things, but people do show up with, with these, with these like big ideas about new projects and new initiatives.

I like to, I like to just kind of flow forward as it were. But sorry, the question was what, what did I do? What was my impact? What could impact? No, no. Yeah.

Nic: If if somebody's new coming in, what, you know, what should they expect this sphere to be? Is it, yeah, I guess what, what should they expect their impact to be?

Fei: Yeah. I mean, so it's so different for each person because some people actually do end up on the board because they have. Certain initiatives in motion and then being on the board, it just happens to be that those initiatives fit into the overall strategic plan. So, for example the, the new board member, Maya has a lot of fantastic events experience.

I think that she's going to do incredible work for, you know, helping, helping the Drupal community like be more visible and expand out into sort of other, other industries, other, other areas of expertise. She's gonna do fantastic things because of that specific work. I showed up kind of more from a diversity and inclusion perspective, and so I did a lot of work kind of with the community, making sure that we had organic structures where community members and, and different spaces had.

Organic kind of pipelines where they could be heard. Making sure that we had the right people on the steering committee who were connected in, in diverse communities throughout North America and with diverse perspectives themselves was part of that. And so, again, like it's, it's so different. But, but I think that the real magic happens.

I, I think I'm, I'm yet to prove this, so hold tight. I think that the real magic happens when you're actually finished your time with the board, because now I have this incredible opportunity and all of this bandwidth to take that knowledge back to the community and to really empower people because I now have an inside perspective on how things move forward.

So it's not even specifically what you move forward. While you're on the board, it's, it's how you support the community in, in achieving the visions that they have. So as an example, I'm, I'm chatting with people in the Latin America community, the Latin American community, about the potential to have a DrupalCon there.

And, and I, and I think that just sitting down with people, you know, I scheduled a meeting and I'm just listening to people and I just sit there and say, yeah, we can do that. That, that's it. That's, that's the, that's this incredible magic. And, and because when I say, yeah, we can do that, I've actually seen how those changes happen behind the, the scenes.

There's a bit of weight to it now. Like I, I don't just believe in us. I know, I know that there's a path forward whether or not we're gonna. Make it all the way to DrupalCon is, is I, to me, I mean, there's a lot of challenges on the horizon, but there's incredible passion, amazingly skilled, amazingly skilled people there.

And and yeah, I think it's I think it's, I think it's definitely possible.

Nic: So you, you've mentioned a couple times as a guest host that you're a little bit further removed from working on Drupal day to day at your new position. What has it been like being on the board of directors or the Drupal Association while being maybe a little bit further removed from the, I guess, Drupal Drupal?

I mean, obviously you're still part of the community. Yes. So that piece of it is fulfilled, but what was it like being maybe a little bit further removed from Drupal itself while being on the association?

Fei: You know, I, I think. I don't think, I don't think it was an issue at all. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to not be deeply entrenched in, you know, what, what specific modules are are new and exciting or the, the technical aspects of it, because the technical side of things in spite of the fact that, you know, I was a front end developer for about a decade, and so I, I used to be very much entrenched in it.

But now there's this whole other half of, of the community, which is non-technical. And that work is just as important as, as pushing code and, and, you know, introducing new modules and being able to speak to the technical side. So I think both sides, both perspectives have value. And you know, I, I actually believe very firmly believe that my, my time as a developer, as a technical leader is incredibly valuable to the work I do now because the engineering perspective and the technical perspective and the needs of the technical community also sometimes don't get advocated for.

Yeah. You know, and so to understand what, what those challenges are and what it feels like to be in that space and to be able to communicate with people and listen in a way that feels meaningful and then advocate. For space, for, you know, whatever it is we're trying to achieve from a non-technical perspective has been an, an in an incredible asset in my work, in my career.

Nic: I mean, I will say, you know, the Drupal Association I mean the technical side of Drupal, like development, core development, co development, all that kind of stuff is kind of self-directed, I think in a lot of ways. Like the, I mean the association has some, some say there, and the Drupal Association of course helps manage, you know, the issue queue and Drupal org and GitLab and all that kind of stuff.

And, and they work with the community pretty closely. One of my. Big wishlist items that you might have an interesting perspective on based on what you do now is, you know, like you said, there are a lot of people that are contributing to Drupal that aren't writing code now, like, and that mm-hmm.

Especially over the last decade with Contral credits and all that kind of, I mean, issue credits that's become more visible, but there's still an enormous gap in contribution from project managers, from Project Man. Well, there's project managers, but from project managers, from front end designers or front end developers.

I mean, I think one of the biggest things that the Drupal community needs is just a couple of project project managers that can go through the issue queue and help prioritize, communicate build out requirements. Mm-hmm. Make sure that it's getting sent off from the right people. Like a lot of the biggest contribution, I'm not a project manager, is not my passion or my skill, but some of my bigger contributions early on in core was really just.

Refreshing the issue, a particular issue 17 times a day, and bugging people on Slack to be like, Hey, you asked this question a week ago. We provided an answer. Is this acceptable to you or not? In doing that for six weeks until that issue got resolved, right.

Yeah.

How, how is it, is there somebody on the board that's kind of brainstorming on how to maybe get that type of contribution?

Not, maybe not project managers specifically, but like how to get that type of contribution into core, like the pieces that are missing because like there's a lot of developers, we need more, right?

Fei: Yeah. Yes. But,

Nic: but developers are used to finding a way to contribute, right? There's a pipeline for that. Even Yeah, designed for

Fei: code contributions, for sure.

Yeah.

Nic: Yeah. So is, is there a working group on the, on the board of directors for like contribution, for like figuring out how to get more people involved, different, different types of jobs involved.

Fei: I would, it is an ongoing conversation and it, and it's interesting that you mention project managers because I fully agree that we need to have a, a project manager.

Like we need to call out and say, please come save us because you are the talent we need to keep things moving forward. I fully agree with you. There's not a specific working group about this, but there are a number of other working groups that, you know, we touch on this, we talk about it when we get together as, as a, as a board.

We get, you know, do the retreats and we talk about, okay, how, who can help us move forward? What do we need? What do we need? What are the gaps? And there're certainly conversations about how do we, how do we expand on what we already have to make it work for more diverse skillsets? Because it's not just code.

We really, and, and yeah, my personal perspective on that is very much aligned with yours, which is we need to train project managers specifically in how to navigate the issue queue, how to identify contributions, and then we need to get community members to draw attention to contributions that should be credited, that should be acknowledged so that project managers know how to, how to, how to, yeah.

You know, give people the credit. I cannot tell you how many things I have done that are absolutely not in my profile because I just didn't put the effort in to, to try and get credit for it. Like, that's not why I'm working, that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. So, and that is true for so many, so many of, of the non code contributors Yeah.

In, in our community. So, is it a specific working group? No. Should it be

Nic: maybe.

But

yeah, I, I, I, I think it's so important 'cause like, like I said, I, I imagine project managers do contribute, even if it's just like, Hey, we have this bug. What's the latest update on drupal.org? And then the developer is the one that's interacting, but we truly, truly need project. And I don't know what the mindset is, like developers maybe 'cause they're in the code, they're like, you know what, I can just fix this and push this fix up.

But is, is there something in the project manager role, like, is there a way to talk to project managers to be like, Hey, you too could be involved in the community and, and lend your expertise to, you know, to the issue queue. Like, or, or how do we build an on-ramp for them? Oh, that solve the problem right now.

Let's figure it out.

Fei: Yeah, no, I thought, I've thought about this a lot because like, this is very dear to my heart where yeah, I, I got really burned out as a developer and then I got hired technically as a scrum master, um mm-hmm Scrum Master project manager. And then the reason that I got into process architecture and automation is because I'm a terrible project manager.

I'm a terrible, terrible project manager. It is so much more difficult than I thought it was. And I have a developer brain. It's not, it's not, I don't have it. And so I do my best. I've been building those skills. And honestly like just sitting down and scheduling a meeting, this is all I'm doing in the Latin American you know, event organization conversations.

I just sat down, I scheduled a meeting and I was like, what are your ideas? Bring them at me and I started typing them up. That's pretty much it. And, and now things are, feels like they're moving forward, you know, people are talking. It feels really exciting. And that is so important. That is so important.

And I'm still, I'm not that good at it. So if, if there's a project manager listening who wants to do more, like, please DM me, I will help you find something. But for an on-ramp we have these first time contributor workshops. I would really love to see something like that designed specifically for project managers.

Like how to, not the issue queue, how to credit people, how to create a new issue, you know, how to, how to talk to people, find people, find initiatives where they might need a bit of your help. Either long term or just a bit of guidance on how to get all your ducks in a row on the same page. Yeah. In the qq, I dunno.

Nic: Absolutely. Yeah. That, that's interesting to think about like a, a training or a call. I mean that, I think that's part of it too, is just letting them know like, Hey, we do need you. We don't, we would appreciate your work. We would acknowledge it. But yeah, that, that's

Martin: interesting. So Faye, the dust is just beginning to settle on your first term as an at large board member, do you think you would run again,

Fei: knowing me?

Yeah, probably, probably right now I'm, I'm actually just so excited to finally have space to jump into, back into the community and get more involved in, in, you know, some of the work that I wanna support now with this, with my new perspective and my ability to say, yes you can, no, you can totally do this.

So right now I'm really excited to bring that knowledge back and to just. Get people excited and get people feeling like, you know, all, all their ideas are possible in the future. It's so hard to say because I feel like if the, if the stars align such that somebody said, Hey, say we really need your perspective in this space because of these reasons, I'd probably say yes, because like, that's what it's about.

Like I it's not about any specific initiative for me, it is about the community as a whole. It is about Drupal as a whole. And so if there's something that I can do to, to, to move things forward or support people that's where I wanna be. It's not about me, it's about all of us.

Nic: That actually made me think something you just said too made me think about this.

So you said that, a lot of the stuff that you've done is not reflected on the drupal.org page, but I'm actually surprised that board meeting, like there's not a community project for the board and meetings aren't credited because I like, we do that for events. I feel like that would be you know, be valuable to reflect that.

I mean, we have the page that shows all the board of directors all the history, like, so it shows that you were in our large board member in 2025, but it should also show up on your your profile page. But

Fei: yeah, that's a great idea. I would, I would love to have a list of sort of, working group meetings and Oh, it does, it does show up though.

The retreat that I attended,

Nic: no, it, it actually shows up as a contributor role as a association board member. Yes. Yeah, so it's

Fei: interesting. It's sort of all encompassing, like one. One board member unit of, of effort, and it's a single line item, but the things that I was part of, some board members are a part of multiple working groups.

Some people are chairs, some people are, you know, really active contributors to those working groups. Some people are just kind of supporting and showing up to the meetings and helping conversation with perspective, which is very, very valid. It's all very valid, but there are, there are vastly different levels of, of effort that we put into things.

And I, yeah, it would be nice to see some of the incredible work that people are doing be be credited there. But you know, in general, just a lot of the non code can trip things we do are, are not always acknowledged. And especially with community new organization, it's a lot of work.

Nic: Yeah. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of work to keep track.

I mean, even doing the podcast is. Can take some effort to make sure that everybody gets the credit that they, that they should. Okay. As we, as we wrap up the show I just wanna call out a couple quick things or I have one final question, but before I do, I think we need to have a follow up show to talk about the trivia curation, because that's another thing that I'd be curious Yes.

To know about and probably deserves this whole show. Yes.

Yeah.

Maybe, maybe we, we can, you can suggest somebody that would be a, a good fit as well to be honest, because I imagine it's more than one person doing the trivia stuff. But I think that'd be fun. What was, what was the election process like?

So if somebody's thinking about it, the election's gonna be next year, the next election is next September, probably. You have to be a Drupal Association member, I believe. Mm-hmm.

But as somebody running, what is it? What can they expect?

Fei: Hmm, okay. The process from my perspective so I actually didn't even ever imagine myself on the board of directors, to be honest.

The reason I ran is because somebody reached out to me and said, Hey, the work that you are doing needs to be like, these voices need to be amplified, and the board needs to know what the community that you are connected in. Like, you, you need to be in this seat. I didn't even realize what this seat was about, honestly.

And so I didn't, I never considered myself, I never saw myself in that role, and so somebody actually reached out to me and said, you should do this. You have something to offer that is really valuable. And so I decided, okay. Yes. I'm gonna go for it. And so what the process looks like, you can, you do need to be a member and, and, but those can come at no cost if you reach out to the, the DA staff and request a no-cost membership.

And so, once you're a member, then you fill out a sort of questionnaire with some just basic questions about what it is that you have to offer, what it is that you hope to achieve on the board. And then the other main piece is there's an open forum so the community can show up. There's a, there's a, a call where I look the, the people who have self nominated answer questions from the community.

And if nobody from the community has questions, then there are sort of preset questions that the moderator will ask. So you have an opportunity to kind of speak and. Have your perspectives be heard. And then, and then voting ensues. And so the community votes and then the winner is elected. So, I think the worst, the worst imposter syndrome I ever had in my whole life was right after that open forum I left that I was like, wow, I, I don't fit in this space.

And, and it's, and it was actually a really profound learning opportunity for me to realize that you know, that like the, the community speaks. Yeah. And the community speaks. More loudly than any imposter syndrome. And, and so, you know, I I, I would also encourage people to kind of be mindful of that little voice that tells us that our, our perspective is not enough.

Our values are, you know, like are, you can aim higher, you are capable of doing more than you give yourself credit for. And the day that I started, the day that the CEO, Tim Doyle shook my hand and said, welcome to the board, I immediately felt like I belonged there. I felt like my perspective was important, I felt respected, and I felt absolutely like all of that imposter syndrome just melted away.

Like it. Completely fabricated. And and so I share this because, because it is really important, it is really important to think about, Hey, are you connected with community? Do you want to, to do more? Do you have, do you have things that you would like the board to hear about the voice of the community?

Then you, you probably, you should consider running or message me and I'll talk to you about it. My TMS are always open. Okay.

Martin: Well, Fei, thank you for joining us.

Fei: Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity to share some of these really important truths.

Nic: Do you have questions or feedback? You can reach out to talking Drupal on the socials with the handle talking Drupal or by email. We'll [email protected]. You can connect with our hosts and other listeners on the Drupal Slack in the Talking Drupal channel

Martin: channel. Want

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Click the guest request button in the [email protected]

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Martin: Faye, if folks wanna get ahold of you, what's the best way for them to reach you?

Fei: Well I am Faye Lauren on all my social media.

My handle is the same everywhere. But the best social media platforms to find me, of course would be probably LinkedIn, Fay Lauren on LinkedIn. And the Dral Slack is where I'm most active.

Martin: And Nick, how about you?

Nic: You can find me pretty much everywhere at nicxvan, N-I-C-X-V-A-N,

Martin: and folks can find me as men clue on all of the Drupal and social platforms, at mandclu.

Fei: If you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking.

Nic: See you guys next week.

Thanks so much. Thanks everyone.