Talking Drupal #418 - Inclusive Hiring Practices

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This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design and development from a group of people with one thing in common.(...) We love Drupal.

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This is episode 418, Inclusive Hiring Practices.

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On today's show, we're talking about inclusive hiring practices, Disability Employment Awareness Month,(...) and tips to improve your hiring practices with our guest, Donna Bungard. We'll also cover Organograms as our module of the week.

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Welcome to Talking Drupal.

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Today, our guest is Donna Bungard. Donna is a senior accessibility program manager at Indeed and on the Drupal conflict resolution team.(...) She also holds internationally recognized certifications in accessibility and project management. In addition, she is currently pursuing a master's of science degree in global technology and development.(...) Donna spent more than 20 years in digital agencies gaining experience in all aspects of web development and has personal history as part of the larger disabled community.(...) Donna, welcome back to the show, and thanks for joining us.

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Thanks for having me back.

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For those of you that don't know, I am John Picozzi, Solutions Architect at E-PAM, and today my co-hosts are Jen Lampton, owner at Generation Web Development. Jen, how are you?

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Great, thanks.

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And as usual, Nic Laflin, founder at Enlightened Development. Nic, how are you doing?(...) Doing great, glad to be here.

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Alrighty, and as we do at this point in the show, let's turn it over to Martin Anderson-Clutz, a senior solutions engineer at Acquia and a maintainer of a number of modules of his own to talk about this week's module of the week.

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Thanks, John. Have you ever wanted a way to define and display an org chart on your Drupal website? There's a module for that. It's called Organograms, and it was created in April of 2016 by Patrick Shafer.(...) It has 7.x-1.3, 8.x-1.3, and 8.x-2.3 versions available, the last two of which can be used with Drupal 8, 9, and 10.

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It is officially listed as maintenance fixes only. It does have only two open issues, neither of which are bugs, which is not bad considering it's in use.(...) Officially by 377 sites. Now, the module works by extending CORS Taxonomy Hierarchy Management, which allows you to organize who reports to who with a simple drag and drop, the same as any taxonomy hierarchy. And for anyone who hasn't used one of those, it would be basically the same as managing a menu structure on your Drupal website. Now, once created, an Organogram can be viewed as a dedicated page, a block, and as a token. The 2.x branch uses Flexbox to achieve a CSS-only presentation that removes the need for any JavaScript,(...) and it appears to have been built to serve the needs of the Dutch House of Representatives.(...) Now, I haven't tested the combination personally, but I suspect that for a site with a very large Organogram, they need to build tools like client-side hierarchical select built to make managing large taxonomies easier would be likely to work with Organograms as well.(...) So, let's talk about Organograms.(...) I am not going to lie, Martin, when I first heard the name of this module, I was definitely thinking of, like, organisms in science, not org charts. So, I appreciate you clearing that up for me.(...) I think org charts are interesting, and I have not used this module, but would be interested in giving it a spin just to see what it does.

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Yeah, I will definitely have to keep it in mind because org charts are a pain to make. I mean, the data structure is pretty straightforward, right? It is generally a fairly straightforward hierarchy, but finding a way to cleanly output that in a responsive way takes more time than it should. So, having something that kind of handles some of that would be good to start with.

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I think also the fact that it is based on kind of the taxonomy hierarchy should mean that if you need to migrate data into something like this, like from, let's say, an HRIS system, that it probably should be fairly straightforward to do that as well, which I think is also a big bonus.(...) Yeah, I am wondering, can you use multiple, like, could you build an org chart with multiple kind of, like, taxonomy hierarchies? Because, like, sometimes you get into companies and they have, like, really funky org charts where you are like, what is happening here?

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I suspect it would because really it is defining a vocabulary to reflect the organogram, so there is no reason you could not have multiple. I think, not sure how it would work if you needed to have a person listed in multiple ones, but maybe there is a way to do that. Right,(...) right. Interesting.(...) You can try it out and see if you can do it.

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But that is pretty cool. So nobody has actually used this module before, but now we all know about it. So the next time we need an org chart, this is where we are going, right?

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Absolutely. Good to know. Good to know.(...) Well, Martin, thank you, as always, for enlightening us and let's move on to our primary topic.

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All right.(...) So let's start with maybe not an easy question, but at least a question that is going to improve the awareness.

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Donna, can you explain to our listeners what is National Disability Employment Awareness Month and why is it important?

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Well, great question.(...) National, I am going to have to practice it a few times too, whatever reason I always say it wrong, too. National Disability Employment Awareness Month is really, really important. We need to understand and recognize the contribution of people with disabilities to our workforce.

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In the United States, according to the CDC, 27% of our population identifies as having a disability. And that means, you know, we are all throughout the workforce and we need to understand and celebrate those contributions.(...) Another important reason to celebrate is because there is still a ton of bias barriers against people that are present for people with disabilities when trying to engage in the workforce, whether it be in the hiring process or actually living out there day to day.(...) In fact, unemployment and underemployment are two of the biggest barriers facing the disability community.(...) And if we look at, like, some of the UN data,(...) in developed countries, the unemployment rate for people with disabilities is usually between 50 and 70%, where in underdeveloped countries we are closer to 80 or 90%.(...) So taking time this month to celebrate really showcases all of the incredible improvements and engagement that people with disabilities have contributed to our workforce and into the stuff we do every day.

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It's funny because taking the time to celebrate is important. And, you know, I think that 50 to 70% in developed countries is great. But I feel like it could always be better, right?(...) Like, yes, let's celebrate, but let's also try to do better, right? I'd like to see that. I'd like to see the number at zero. But we all know that that may not be possible.(...) So, like, you know, it would be great if we could get it down to, like,(...) 25, like 20%.

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If we could keep it in alignment with general rates.(...) Because those general rates, I'm not the economist or whatnot, but from what I've witnessed,(...) I believe they typically flux a little bit, depending on where we are in time.(...) So better representative of or more in line with what we see in our people without disabilities,(...) then, you know, it would mean that disability is more normalized in our culture and therefore accepted.

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That's interesting. Now, do you not being an economist,(...) but do you typically see a correlation between the 50 to 70% and the actual unemployment rate for, like, for the nation? Like, is there some sort of, like, percentage there, like, if it goes up or down?(...) I do not have that information.(...) I can say that there's been multiple studies I've read that suggest that because of the accommodations we all needed during the pandemic, the rate of unemployment for people with disabilities dropped during that time. Because remote work and accommodations were things everybody needed. And then some, like, companies since then have learned all sorts of wonderful ways about, again, normal accommodations really are and how easy they are to implement and how remote work, well, really works well.(...) So I don't know about that larger period, but I've read a lot of studies that suggest that.(...) Just to clarify, like, the U.S., which the current unemployment rate, just to put these numbers in perspective, the current general unemployment rate in the U.S. right now is 3.8%.(...) So we're talking about an unemployment rate that's between 10 and 20 times higher, which is, yeah, we've got some work to do. Well, you're using U.S. data versus global data. Global data. Yeah, so they may not. You need to use U.S. to U.S. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but from what I've read, it is usually more than double. But I don't believe it's quite at the 20%(...) or 200% or whatever you suggest. So yeah, the U.S. currently has a 7.6% unemployment rate for disabled persons. So we've we've all established very early on we're not economists and statistics may not be our strong suit. So bear with us. No, but it is important to understand the difference between our global data and our U.S. data, because there's always a question of, you know, what is disability and different countries, different cultures.(...) There's different rates of disclosure.

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There's different ways people identify. Some countries have a special certification where someone, you know, will frankly, medically, a more medical model of disability will check a box. Whereas in the U.S., many of us follow the social or disability justice model, which basically says it's not a matter of who is disabled enough or what that disability is. It's what are those barriers and how can we break those down? And to clarify,(...) the month is October, right? The National Disability Employment Awareness Month. OK. In the context that we're talking about, can you talk, can you define kind of what inclusive means when we're talking about inclusive hiring practices?

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Absolutely. It basically means we meet people where they are.(...) You always allow for multiple methods of communication because, you know, right here we're all communicating verbally,(...) but somebody else may not feel comfortable speaking or communicating verbally, whereas somebody else may want to take in their content through another method, whether it be textual or, you know, a refreshable braille display, any number of ways of communicating back and forth. So being inclusive means that you're willing to meet people where they are. And in truth, being inclusive is only part of it because we also need to have that sense of belonging.

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People thrive when they have that sense of belonging at work.(...) They work better.

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All sorts of wonderful things happen. There's a whole bunch of studies about it.

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So when we want to when I speak about inclusive here, I'm actually also kind of building belonging into that because allowing someone to come in and communicate with you, but maybe not taking their suggestions seriously because of some bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious, it's not going to work as well. We need that person to be able to communicate and have their voice really heard, elevated, and given the opportunity to thrive.(...) Are there other reasons why inclusive hiring practices are important?

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Absolutely. When you have disability inclusive hiring practices, you're not necessarily only hoping, helping to move your needle on your disability inclusion efforts.(...) You see, the disabled community or the disability community, I should say, is the largest underrepresented group. And people with disabilities exist within every other underrepresented group there is, which means that when you're practicing inclusive disability, inclusive hiring practices, you are moving the needle on every single aspect of your DEI B plus work.(...) Everything fits together. There is an intersectional nature of disability.(...) It's not one, you know, it's not a radio button.

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It's a checkbox. So that's really important to remember. Can you define DEI B plus?(...) Oh, sorry. Diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging. And then we always have the cost because there's always so much more there we can do. I just didn't know what the B stood for. I'm sorry.

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It's fine.

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Interesting. You know, I think that's a good point is like by improving your hiring practices, making them more inclusive, you're really kind of elevating or enhancing the experience for everyone,

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which is great. I mean, I think everybody can get behind that.

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So let's dive into organizations and specifically have they been doing this well in regards to, you know, disability inclusion, specifically in the workplace or in their hiring practices?

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Yes. As I said, with COVID, we did see an influx.(...) Lots of studies have talked about that. There's a lot of things like Zoom captioning is becoming more normalized instead of somebody having to be like, hey, can you turn those on for me?

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We're normalizing a lot of really helpful things, like having cameras be optional during meetings is something we talk about. And a lot of people want to do that because of Zoom fatigue if they're remote workers or working remotely for a period of time. But the truth of the matter, it might help for somebody who is stimming, which is a self-soothing, repetitive task,(...) usually associated with a neurodivergent identity.

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But it may be that someone is using a feeding tube and they feel uncomfortable doing that on camera with their teammates, or they're just concerned that they get questions that they don't want to answer. And there's no reason they have to. So normalizing that being able to turn off our cameras from time to time. The remote work helps people who maybe have extra challenges with commutes.

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And there's just a lot of these little things that people have done in the last couple of years that are getting baked into company cultures. And Return to Office has made that a little challenging for folks. But with any luck, we'll find that medium that will allow those who do function better in that more social environment to have the ability to do so,(...) while those who need or just prefer that remote option, that they'll be able to do that too. So it's really up to the company's culture and how an individual works best.

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It's interesting. I have so many questions on that point. Let me start with one and we'll see where we go.

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I thought it was interesting. You talked about cameras and being able to turn them off, right?

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And I've seen some organizations in the past have work from home policies that are the opposite, right? Like you have to turn your camera on so people can see your face, right?

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I assume that based on your comment that those requirements can be anti-inclusive. Is that fair to say? Or should they be more? I'm assuming that the requirements should be less requirements and more suggestions, I guess.

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I think a suggestion is a great way to put it.

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I don't necessarily think that there's a blanket answer. And I'm not saying that to start this. I'm saying it because there are occasions when you might need that communication with body language and such. But knowing that not everybody, whether it be a neurodivergent or different cultural differences,(...) not everybody interprets or expresses body language the same.

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So I think it needs to be a little bit case by case, but to allow people and asking them and frankly respecting them that if they say, look, I work better off camera or just so it's not on their them to be disclosing all the time,(...) giving them the option of, hey,(...) you know, here is a profile picture that says something along the lines. I'm here and participating, just taking a break from camera gives them the option of do I want to use that or not? I mean, you all know me. I usually have a camera on very often. There's a small dog jumping on me at an inopportune time or I'm fidgeting with something, which is frankly what I'm doing off camera right now. I found something here and I'm fidgeting the entire time we're talking.(...) Our listeners, our listeners will know all about that.(...) There are quite a few episodes in our backlog where you'll hear clicking of Steven's pen from time to time. So that off camera fidgeting, it happens to us all.(...) I have a couple more a couple more things. I know this question is this question is blossoming. But I want to talk a little bit about going back to work. Right. So the idea that working from home, working remotely is good for some people may not be great for others. Right. Is a great idea. Like, you know, I work from home. I enjoy it. But I'm wondering specifically for people.

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So there's going to be a set of people that want to work from home. Right. And maybe they have, you know, they have a disability that they feel more comfortable being at home and being able to work from home using Zoom, using those features of Zoom that you talked about. Right. For the people that do want to return to work, though, and want to be, you know, want to be able to be in the office. Like, what kind of accommodations are companies going to have to make? Right. So, you know, using the example of kind of like Zoom captioning. Right. Like, if you're in a conference room with somebody, you don't have the luxury of Zoom captioning. Like, I wonder what, you know, how are companies going to have to evolve now if they're like, no, you have to come back to work.

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And maybe this person was hired in a scenario where they had the option of fully remote work. There are, you know, we're looking at all these tools right now that have been adapted for online work, but there are those same tools that exist in real life. Like, you can have a device that listens and then prints captions. And they have them and, you know, have been having them in conferences for a really long time. And I think that it's just sort of growing to a point where it's like now that we expect this in one place, it'll become more normalized that it'll exist in all places, or at least I hope it will.

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I kind of also want to point out something specific to the captioning too, because specifically from our podcast. So one of the things that YouTube does is it will every week or so it sends us some statistics. And one of the statistics that kind of surprised me a little bit, to be honest, like I know every time you're on Donna, you say like you give us the statistics on how many people that identify as disabled or need some sort of accommodation. But nearly 25% of our listeners have closed captioning on YouTube, which is, I mean, I use captions, but that's still significantly higher than, you know, I thought our audience would be using them. So when we're talking about these types of tools, like Jen just mentioned, like even in person, like people need them.(...) And I think that, you know, that was a good question, John. You know, how do you translate some of these from virtual tools to kind of in-person tools for accommodation? Can I jump in on that for a minute? So this is something that I've noticed too. I'm doing a bunch of work on government sites and they all have to be made accessible. And we talk about this a lot where like once you build these tools, you find that they are benefiting everyone. Like you might build them intentionally for that one audience, but then it turns that the audience that actually uses them is much higher than you intended. And so it's important that they be there because it makes it better for everyone. And there's a really great example for that in the real world is curve cuts. Like they were originally put in for wheelchairs, but they're used by people who have trouble stepping up. They're used by, you know, mothers with baby strollers. They're using by people walking to and from the airport with their suitcase. It's the kind of thing that it benefits everybody. And so just having it there makes a big difference. And I think captioning is a great example of that online, where like if you're, you know, somebody's a little bit too quiet, you can turn that on to hear them. If you're having trouble, you know, understanding an accent that can really help too, where I wouldn't identify as needing captions like for normal life, but I use them because it makes everything easier for me. Right. And so I think that that's just something to keep in mind to where we're doing this to improve the scenario for one person, but it's actually going to improve the scenario for potentially everybody at at least some point in their life.

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I'm just really happy to hear that you talked about the curb cuts. It's actually referenced as a curb cut effect. Is that interesting?(...) Yeah, it's this thing where there's multiple, multiple improvements people have made.

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And there's this great cartoon out there.(...) And it shows these kids trying to get into like a school or a building.

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And one of the children happens to be in a wheelchair and everything is snow covered.(...) And they're speaking to somebody who is shoveling off the stairs.

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And the children are asking, Hey, can you shovel the ramp for us?

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And the individual says, I will do it after I do the chairs after I do these stairs. And then the kids turn to them and go, why? If you shovel the ramp first, we all can use it. We can all get in. And if you do the stairs, not everybody can.

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So it's that same idea of if you design for, appreciate for the 20% or in this case, 27%, you're actually going to make everybody's experience more equitable that way.(...) That's what that cartoon is trying to communicate. And it's again, that curb cut effect that everything has a reaction. The other thing too, that people sometimes, you know, opponents sometimes say like, it's not a zero sum game, right? Having an extra curb cut, if you don't need it, isn't going to affect you in any such way. But having that curb cut is essential for other people. So those types of accommodations, I think are just, they should just exist. There's no reason not to have them. Bringing this back to the original question, right? So we're talking about curb cuts. We're talking about ramps on the front of buildings, right? So, you know, obviously buildings, you know, due to the ADA are accessible to people via ramps, via elevators, via other methods, right? Oversized doors and so on and so forth.

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I guess my question comes back to, you know, kind of what Jen was alluding to. You know, certain devices, certain technology being added to conference rooms to be able to help these folks in, you know, in-person scenarios, right? I'm wondering, like, are we seeing companies that are saying like, hey, folks, you have to come back to work and these people are coming back to the office, right? And they need these assistive technologies. Are we seeing companies providing those technologies? Are we seeing companies saying like, oh, well, you can just work from home because, like, you know, there's a need there.(...) And that doesn't feel inclusive to me. It feels the opposite, especially if somebody really wants to come into the office. I'm wondering how that's impacting, you know, those organizations.

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And if you were seeing, you know, we're seeing organizations actually do the reverse. They're buying the technology. They're, you know, fostering that environment.

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I spend a lot of time trying to listen to the voices out there on various media platforms talk about their experience.

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And truth be told,(...) I'm hearing things that are as individualized as the people and their own barriers or the barriers they experience, I should say.

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So I think that comes down a lot to a case by case basis.

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What people need and what people perceive as being normal or extra differs widely. And I'm thinking even between the companies I've worked for over the last few decades.

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The idea in the thoughtfulness behind that has very widely from company to company. I mean,(...) and some of it's a logistical thing. I was at a place over the weekend and they had these very steep escalators. And right now I'm recovering from a knee surgery.(...) So getting on this escalator was a little scary, but their elevator, which they had, was out of order.

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So it really is going to. And who knows, maybe that's fixed today.

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But I think it comes down to a very temporal experience.(...) And that's one of the things actually that a lot of people who kind of live in the disability realm in terms of theories and professions and things like that is they talk about the temporal nature of disability because somebody might not be identifying as disabled yesterday. They may tomorrow.(...) Maybe they were born neurodivergent, but will acquire something later in life.

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My eye doctor likes to remind me that 100% of people between the age of 45 and 55, the lens on the front of our eyes hardens, which is why some of us are in bifocals.

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There's a very temporal nature.

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I'm having greater mobility barriers because I'm recovering from a knee replacement.(...) So, you know, I joke with people, give me a minute, I'll waddle over there in a second. But the truth of the matter is I'm having greater mobility barriers right now, but that's a temporal thing.(...) So to say that companies are doing X or Y seems a little bit too blankety. That's new charm, by the way, very technical blankety.

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But I think there's an opportunity for us to talk about it. And I think that as we're celebrating the achievements people are having, we should also be talking about what's worked, what's taken down those barriers. It's not always hard work and grit. You know, it's not, well, I know you have a disability, but if you work hard, no, that doesn't work. We need to talk about the barriers, how those barriers were dismantled and approach it that way.

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And if we create supportive organizations and supportive environments,(...) people are going to find ways to meet each other's needs, whether or not they're disclosing too. And that's another really important piece. So speaking of disclosing and disclosure,(...) what is it and how can it impact the work life of people with disabilities? How do you how do you accommodate that? All right. So disclosure is saying,(...) Hi, my name is Donna. I am mysteriously neuro divergent. That is me disclosing.(...) That is me sharing this very personal bit of information about myself to everybody who's listening to this. That is a disclosure. Some people feel very comfortable in their work environments mentioning that they are disabled and this is the nature of their disability.

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However,(...) for some people and a lot of people, sadly, it's a very scary thing. And it's scary because suddenly the minute you disclose,(...) you are in fact in sort of a way competing with everybody else, the person you're disclosing to ever knew with a disability or with that nature of disability.

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For example, if I say, Hey, I'm mysteriously neuro divergent. I was learning disabled as a teen, yada, yada, yada.

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That might contra images of your mind of somebody who was ineffective because you knew somebody when you were 14 or maybe a cousin had a very different disability, but you don't know the differences between them. So they had limitations with X, Y and Z and those limitations might not be the same as mine, but I'm being judged that way.

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So it becomes a very scary thing that you're suddenly competing against the lack of a better term ghosts of somebody else's lived experiences and not actually what you're asking for and what you need. Disclosures now, I guess I'm familiar with that in the like HR sense of the term where like you need certain workplace accommodations from your employer to be able to do your job, right?

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Is that the same thing or are we simply just referring to this as informing your coworkers like I have this and this is how I work with it and so on and so forth or is it both?

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All of the above.

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All of the above. There is the official disclosure process with most organizations,(...) but then there is the do you want to tell your team? Do you want to tell this or that? It can't even be a social aspect as well if we want to take it out of the workplace. It's whenever you share that information.

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And from like an HR disclosure standpoint, I would imagine that you're disclosing it with the organization to make sure you have the stuff you need to be successful.

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I would imagine that then gets shared with your direct supervisor, but doesn't necessarily have to be shared with anybody else. Is that accurate?

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It's considered very private information.(...) Right. Data about disability is sometimes actually harder to find because it is so well protected.

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And that is a wonderful thing. But it sometimes makes it also a little bit hard in terms of where do we, you know, where do we make the business case? And luckily organizations are starting to realize that the disclosure number, though sometimes helpful for like reporting of this over that. The truth of the matter is that that disclosure number isn't necessarily needed in order to make that inclusive workplace.

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Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I think the goal of any employer should be to make their place of employment as inclusive as possible so as many people can have the accommodations they need without having to disclose. Right. And obviously, example, are things that are protected by the ADA, right? You have ramps, you have elevators, maybe escalators, that kind of stuff. Like if somebody needs that accommodation, they don't have to go, oh, by the way, I need a ramp, right? There just should be one and they can utilize that. Or as you mentioned, if you have a temporary mobility issue and you need to utilize that ramp, you don't have to plan ahead for it, right? You don't have to tell your supervisor, oh, by the way, for the next few weeks, I don't know how long the recovery is, but for the next X, I'm going to need this stuff. It's just available to you. And I think the goal should be to try to make it in such a way that either it's just available or it's a very seamless process to request it. I think there might be other types of things that maybe are a little bit rare that might require some sort of request or disclosure. Like you had mentioned, what was it, the reusable braille?

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Refresherable braille. Refresherable braille. Like those devices I imagine are pretty rare. And if somebody needs one, they should request it and be able to get it from their employer. But I'd be surprised if there were many employers that just had some of those on hand that you could check out with an IT form, right? I think it'd be nice to have grants and things that make it available so that is the process. But I think, what do you think about that? And where do you think companies are when it comes to that? Are companies making their workplaces more inclusive so that people just have those accommodations kind of as a default or is it still a work in progress?

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Well, one of the challenges is going to be that everybody is unique.

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And it's going to come down to just asking people, what do you need?

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And basically, access needs are human needs is what this comes down to. So, you know, I might right now need a little more time to walk from A to B.

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I, you know, I work very well when I'm switching gears a lot. That's just personally how I work well. These are things I need right now. One I will need in six months, one I hopefully won't.(...) But those are needs.

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Technology is like a refreshable braille display. You might want to offer that if you know somebody needs it or what have you. But they might prefer to use their own. Like I'm right now walking with a cane. I don't want anybody to just up and say, well, no, here's mine. Use it. No, I have my stuff. I have my assistive technology. I've got this.(...) So it really comes down to having a place where you have that safety to have these conversations.

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And everyone is going to have an access need at some point. And it doesn't mean it's disability related.(...) Maybe my access need in a few months once the snow flies here in New Hampshire is going to be the fact that my internet has gone out for four hours. And I'm going to maybe need people to be flexible in switching around calls or something. So that way I can meet them and present my best self without trying to be getting some signal hotspotting from my phone when we're having a really deep, important conversation.

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So those access needs apply to everybody, but they take the pressure off people with disabilities for saying, you know, you, what do you need? No, it's everybody. What do we need? What do we need to thrive? What do we need to have this really positive supportive work environment?

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And what you're going to find, or at least I can't say that, what I have found is when we start having these conversations is that people start opening up about things they need when their kids are sick or things they need because they just lost someone important to them and they're having a hard time.

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People start opening up about all of these human dynamics that make us people and sharing their needs with each other and saying, I need this and not always feeling the need to explain everything,(...) but feeling safe to do so anyway.

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So I'm going to play a little bit of devil's advocate here and throw a scenario at you.(...) And I'd love to love to hear your thoughts on this. Right. So, you know, I think what you just said was great. Like, you know, we want to give people what they need to be able to do their work and to feel comfortable in their workspace. Right.(...) And we've already established with disclosures. You can tell HR, you can tell your boss, but you don't necessarily have to broadcast it. Right. I'm wondering what your feeling is on, you know, a situation where, you know, an employee has disclosed to, you know, HR to their boss that they have certain needs. And let's say it's, you know, maybe it's light sensitivity or certain temperature requirements in, you know, in the workplace. And it's a workplace, maybe where an open workplace where everybody kind of works in one spot. Right. Now, the logical thing there would be to give that person their own office. Right. How do you suggest a manager kind of overcome maybe the organizational or just the team dynamic issues that that might present without kind of violating that disclosure?(...) That's a good question. Give me a second to think on that.

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And I think one of the things that I would like to think about is, you know, I think that's what I would probably say is the healthiest way forward is to make sure that the individual is in the comfort zone. Is in the conversation.

(...)

You know, the entire disability rights movement has been, you know, nothing about us without us. And they're talking about government policies. But I think that comes down to that smaller interactions as well of,(...) okay, I am happy to do this. You know, you're a valued member of our team, but you realize that the people are going to notice.(...) How do you feel comfortable addressing it or or not addressing it or whatnot?

(...)

And have that kind of open conversation. And if they choose to not address it, then, you know, you have to keep that that information private. But at least they'll know that people are asking and they're maybe not getting a set of what they would consider a satisfied factory answer. And maybe that's okay. Maybe it's not everybody's business.

(...)

But I feel like that really open communication is probably the the kindest way to move forward on everyone's behalf.

(...)

Yeah, I mean, I think I think the open lines of communication are important. You know, I just see like as the manager and this is this is why managers make the big bucks, I suppose, is like that's that that kind of puts them in a weird scenario where, you know, an employee could come to them and say like, well, you know,(...) you know, X person gets to have their own office.

(...)

And it's it's not because, you know, those those two people are different in any that work related. Those people aren't different in any way. But like there are needs there that need to be met in order for that. The person that has the office to be to be able to work effectively. I mean, I think the answer is that you don't make it a single combination. You find a way to give everybody an office.

(...)

But this is me being against open offices in general. I think they want right now. It's true.(...) That that that's a loftier thing, though, right? It's like, you know, culture and like, yeah, you know, how the team is structured and like what the working, you know, so, I mean, it goes to a lot of a lot of different things. But yeah, I mean, I think being open and having an open conversation with that person, like, you know, I may get this question. And how do I how do I handle it or how would you like me to handle it is is a good approach there. I think it needs to be a two way conversation at that point, too. And there may be creative ways to address it that I'm not thinking of off the cuff. Sure. Yeah, I did spring that on you. So that is completely fair.

(...)

I think one thing you said, I think it was a great question, by the way, because it's applicable to the last situations. But one of the things you said kind of in response to my my quip is, you know, that that's a cultural thing. But I think that's kind of the point of today's discussion, like finding cultural way like these issues can only be solved with cultural change. Right. And I think the U.S. in general has been moving in the right direction.

(...)

But, you know, it's it's culture, it's work culture is part of, you know, whatever culture in, like, how do you address these issues? Yeah, it's not just a hey, there's a simple comfort accommodation you make for this person. Like some of these things can just need to be solved culturally in general across the board. Yeah, I guess what I meant by like what I meant by culture wasn't so much like a negative or a positive. Right. It's just like the way that the way that it is. And one other solution that I just thought of was maybe you don't give that person their own office, but you have a designated space that is the proper temperature and the proper ambient light setting for that person. And people can choose like, oh, maybe more people want to actually go to this this work area than then are in the current work area. You know,(...) make a totally cave. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds fabulous. Maybe not call it a place, but I don't know. Maybe call it a dark. It's dark. I don't know. But yeah, I think that's right. Because I'm like, if you want to work in there all the time, you can. But if it's just a day where you're really cold,(...) you want to go in the corner. And frankly, maybe if you find out that, you know, 80 percent of your of your team is trying to crowd into one small room, it might be telling you something about your environmental settings.(...) Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It might be. It might become the norm, right, as opposed to the exception, which would would be lovely.

(...)

All right. Sorry. All I'm thinking of now is Coder Cave and like just like drips of water and just like damp and wet and like. That's what we call it when I was in college, because all of the coders would go into this one computer lab and the lights were motion detected. And so we would all just be sitting there typing long enough that the lights would go off and eventually just nobody cared. And we just like kept working in the dark.(...) So it became called the Coder Cave.

(...)

OK, so let's talk about making our workplaces more inclusive.

(...)

And I mean, there are 100 million things we could do to achieve this. But, Donna, what do you think like the top three things organizations can do to be more inclusive in the workplace are?

(...)

Well, the number one thing I already said is ask everybody what their access needs are. And it doesn't matter if somebody is disclosing, if they are not disclosing, if they have a non-apparent disability,(...) a parent disability, it does not matter. Ask every single human who works for you what are your access needs. And you're going to learn a lot about what what people are expecting in the workplace.

(...)

Another thing would be to to really representation matters.

(...)

And I'm going to use this for two and three, because first of all, we need representation on our websites, on our this and not on the accessibility statement page or anything about disability only.

(...)

There are incredible people with disabilities who are coders, who are people buying insurance.(...) There's somebody buying a car, you know,(...) grocery stores. I'm sorry, but just like everyday life, you know, people with disabilities don't just show up to work. They they have these whole lives. They have families and children and siblings and friends and go on first dates and all of these wonderful things. So we really need to show representation.(...) There's been big push to have authentic representation in Hollywood.(...) There's been a big push elsewhere.

(...)

So representation in our media when we're talking about our companies is huge, huge, huge. Everyone wants to see themselves.(...) You know, you're you're applying to a place or part of a team. You want to see yourself as a part of that. You need to sometimes be represented.(...) And a little caveat to that is also I am a big fan when you have alt text. If your design teams are taking hours to find just the right picture, describe the people in the picture.

(...)

It's wonderful to have, you know,(...) somebody with their service animal being described as being there with their service animal. You know, there's there's a big difference between, you know, in my scenario right here, between woman and chair and, you know, 40 something woman emphatically using our hands on a podcast as she talks about disability inclusion.(...) They're both accurate. And one tells a damn story. Sorry. Darn story.(...) Whatever.

(...)

So that's two. And then the third is representation in your leadership.

(...)

People trying companies to grow and to learn.(...) And when we have leaders who are people who identify as being a part of the disability community,(...) they're able to really just, we're not looking to inspire people, we're looking to practically show them, hey, I have a path forward here.(...) It's not about inspiration. It's about the logistics of knowing that you can grow and you can succeed in that environment.

(...)

So just a clarifying question because I'm kind of an idiot.

(...)

As a manager, right, if I were to ask and like asking every employee what their access needs are is important, right. But like if I phrase it that way, like somebody might look at you and go like, what are you talking about?(...) I need a username and password to get onto this,(...) you know, my email, right. That's that's an access need. Is it is it I mean, is it fair enough to ask my question of like, what do you need for me to be able to do your job? Like, is that is that another way of phrasing that or how should that how should it be phrased so that, you know, I don't know that it's understood as to, you know, I'm asking, I'm asking either basically what you need in order to be successful.

(...)

I always recommend asking everybody what their access needs are. And if you have to clarify after that's not a problem.

(...)

I think asking people what their access needs are helps anybody who has an accessibility related need know that they're being spoken to, but also somebody who maybe they're missing some of their essentials to work. Maybe they don't have childcare. Maybe they don't have reliable internet.

(...)

Maybe they're looking for, for access needs to be able to join the workforce. I mean, I know that talking Drupal is a Drupal group but we don't only have programmers here asking for passwords.(...) We have people at every level of the organization in the Drupal community and every aspect of that work.(...) And we have clients who are on on that client side, who are catering to goodness knows how many different industries and and people in different rules.

(...)

So, if somebody needs to clarify later that's that's perfectly fine.

(...)

But I think that confusion over username and password is going to be a more developer centric question. And if we're talking about an organizational policy, you're going to be talking to a lot more people.

(...)

Yeah, and I guess the username password was a bad example. I mean, I in my head I was just thinking like when somebody says access to me right I'm thinking more of like gaining access to a system or a service or something but yeah I mean I think clarifying that in conversation makes a lot of sense.

(...)

I also agree with your points two and three I mean I think we should do better to represent a more a wider distribution of the population in marketing and in print materials and web materials and other places.

(...)

So, those are all those are all great points.

(...)

Can you, can you give us some of the benefits of implementing inclusive hiring practices.

(...)

So, this is a really important piece of your talent pool.

(...)

If you think about it, that there's these larger percents of individuals with disabilities who are unemployed or underemployed. That means that this is a huge talent pool that's ready to be tapped.

(...)

Diverse teams have been proven to produce better work and disability is a type of diversity.(...) So you're getting a larger talent pool, and you're improving your diversity in your teams which is going to lead to better problem solving more dynamic solutions I mean, there's study after study after study out there that it talks about diversity improving the problem solving on teams at every level and then you're getting more and more qualified people ready to work with you.

(...)

If you worked at an organization and wanted to improve your hiring process to make it more inclusive how would you do that, how would you evaluate if you needed to and then how would you do it.

(...)

Well, I do work with indeed we have all sorts of great tools.

(...)

So obviously, shameless plug there. I love, I love the company I love our mission. I love all of that.

(...)

But outside of that, I think one of the greatest tools we can offer is flexibility.

(...)

Whether it be flexibility of ours, flexibility of how someone works, flexibility in terms of how we communicate.

(...)

I think the greatest single thing is to not worry so much about how it's been done and be flexible to learn new ways of how it can be done.(...) When, when we're talking about inclusive hiring practices, whose responsibility is it to address non inclusive hiring practices if there's a company that's not meeting the bar, or could improve like whose responsibility is it to kind of address that.

(...)

I'm, I honestly believe it's everybody's, I think everybody has a voice and a role to play.(...) And maybe not everyone's going to have the same direct impact. But I think there's a lot of even indirect impact that can be had. If your organization has employee resources, resource groups, usually there's one around disability or accessibility or the like.

(...)

Those are great resources, things like that.(...) But everybody has something and it might just be in terms of referring a friend, it might be in recommending an image. It might be in terms of if they're in HR, actually looking at the equitable processes to make sure that that we're reducing barriers. There's all sorts of different opportunities that people have and it just comes down to understanding where you have influence. And if your influence is a little less than maybe it's just being a supportive teammate and seeing if somebody has a barrier, you know, seeing what, what support they want. Wow, we have we have covered quite a bit today. And, you know, it's been a really great conversation.

(...)

Donna, I'd like to give you a second to see if you have any closing thoughts before we before we bring the show to a close. And indeed, we talk a lot about how talent is universal, but opportunity is not.

(...)

It's a very powerful statement.(...) And I would like to just emphasize that as we look to October to national employment,(...) Disability Employment Month, as we celebrate people's accomplishments. We also want to say that, you know, that talent is universal. Everyone has has something they can contribute. And it's about finding ways to create opportunities for them for that success. Yeah, that's that's awesome. And as always, Donna, thank you for for enlightening us and joining us today. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you. I'm laughing over the enlightening comment.

(...)

I chuckle at me. I've got that too.

(...)

Sorry.

(...)

Okay.(...) Are we are we not enlightened? I feel like we're enlightened. My company is enlightened development. Because it's enlightened development.(...) Okay.(...) I'll find a new word.(...) No, I like it.

(...)

For listeners, do you have any questions or feedback? You can reach out to Talking Drupal and Twitter with the handle Talking Drupal or by email a show at Talking Drupal.com. You can connect with our hosts and other listeners on Drupal Slack and the Talking Drupal channel. You can promote your Drupal community event on Talking Drupal. Learn more at Talking Drupal.com slash TD promo.

(...)

And you can get the Talking Drupal newsletter to learn more about our guest hosts show news upcoming Drupal camps, local meetups and much more. You can set up for a newsletter at Talking Drupal.com slash newsletter. Thank you, patrons, for supporting Talking Drupal. Your support is greatly appreciated. You can learn more about becoming a patron at Talking Drupal.com. Choosing that big become a patron button in the sidebar.

(...)

All right, everyone, we have made it to the end of our show.

(...)

The point in time at which we let you promote yourself. So, Donna, as the guest, you get to go first. If folks wanted to get a hold of you, how could they go about doing that?

(...)

Hit me up in Drupal Slack and well, there's a whole bunch or Talking Drupal Slack, of course.

(...)

There's a whole bunch of other ways. Look around Drupal, D.O, all that. I am around.

(...)

There you go.

(...)

Jen, what about you? I'm known as Jen Landon on the Internet. You can find me in Drupal Slack as Jen Landon. You can find me in Backdrops Zulip Chat as Jen Landon. My website is JenLandon.com. Nic, what about you?

(...)

You can find me pretty much everywhere at Nicxvan, N-I-C-X-V-A-N. And I'm John Picozzi. You can find me on all the major social networks. @drupal..org at John Picozzi. And you can find out about E-PAM at E-P-A-M dot com. And if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking. See you guys next week. Have a good one, everyone.