Talking Drupal #378 - Acquia’s Drupal Acceleration Team

John P  
This is talking Drupal. A weekly chat about web design development from a group of people with one thing in common. We love Drupal. This is episode 378 aqui is Drupal Acceleration Team. Welcome to talking Drupal. Today we're talking about Acquia's Drupal acceleration team with Tim Plunkett. Tim has been a Drupal developer for over 14 years. major contributions include getting Views into core Thank you very much, as well as in as well as the introduction of config entities, plugins and the object orientented form system. Most recently, he was the CO initiative lead and primary developer of layout builder. Thank you again. He works remotely from Philadelphia as an engineering manager on Acquia's Drupal acceleration team. Tim, welcome to the show. And thank you for joining us again.

Tim P  
Yeah, thanks for having me back.

John P  
For those of you that don't know I am John Piccozi a Solutions Architect at EPAM. And today, my co hosts are Nic Laflin, founder of Enlightened Development. How are you sir?

Nic L  
Good morning. I'm very good. So just

John P  
great to hear. Lesley Glynn is also joining us a customer success manager at Redfin Solutions. Leslie, how are you?

Leslie G  
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me again.

John P  
Absolutely. Let's move into our module the week. Now, for the module week we're going to bring in Martin Andrus includes a Senior Solutions Engineer at Acquia, and maintainer of a number of Drupal modules of his own. And I think he's actually going to talk about his latest creation. Mod. Martin, what do you have for us this week?

Martin A  
Thanks, John. Yes, this week, I'm going to be talking about the keysafe module, which is brand new, it allows a an editor or admin to save an entity or config form using Command S or Ctrl S, instead of having to sort of navigate over and click on the submit button says small by design really just adds a tiny JavaScript library to simulate the click. So far, it's only being used by two sites, which might both actually be me. And it really came about because I was setting up a new Drupal site going back and forth between kind of config files in my IDE, and Drupal is web UI, and a couple of times had the experience of accidentally doing the command S, when I was making some changes and having to sit in frustration and watch that sort of, you know, Save Dialog, scroll down over the web UI and then scroll back up, once I cancelled it, and started thinking maybe there's a way to at first cancel it and then decided, well, maybe there's actually a way to make that work the way I had actually intended when I did the control S. So read a little bit of JavaScript, thanks to the config forms and or I guess object oriented forms, it was actually pretty easy to attach that pretty widely through the site. And, and I've been using it for last few days. And for me, it's it makes a big sort of usability improvement, it definitely makes an even bigger difference on kind of long forms, like your modules forms, your permissions forms. And I think there's potentially an accessibility benefit. So instead of having to sort of like tab your way through log form to get to the submit button, being able to do that with a keystroke, but maybe this is good opportunity to open up to the group has anybody else kind of had that experience of accidentally opening up that dialogue while working in the Drupal back end?

John P  
I, I'd like to first suggest a module name change, maybe instead of t save, we call it key and scroll saver,

Nic L  
or content saver or something? Well, the first question that comes to mind for me is does this change the default submission behavior? Meaning does it bring you back to the edit page and leave you there? Or does it bring you to the view page automatically as well, because I feel like if I'm, if I if I hit CTRL S when I'm working on like a node, usually it's like, I'm just saving in progress. Because like, if I'm using Word or something like that, like it auto saves all the time, and you just you don't know for some reason you save before you close, but usually it's like an improper thing. You're still editing and making sure I can lose your you lose your place. And so I'm thinking if I were to use this, it would be like, I want to save the page, but I'm gonna continue working. Does it do that? Or is that just hit the submit button for you? And

Martin A  
yeah, it literally submits or a simulates a click on the Submit button. So as you say, it would be exactly the same is doing a full save in the sense of redirecting you. Based on that there is a module that will autosave, though, if that's what Yeah,

John P  
so So Nick, I want you over the next 24 hours, to pay attention to how many pages you scroll all the way to the bottom to in order to hit the Save button. And then think, hey, if I took all of that time and chained it together, it would maybe be like a whole hour of my day, right? Maybe a half hour, I don't know. But this is going to save you that time.

Nic L  
I appreciate the sentiment, but I use June admin theme, which puts the Save button at the top of the page always. So I do zero scrolling. But I do have one other question for you, Martin about this is how does it dedupe Multiple submit buttons on a page? For example, if you're using inline entity form or something, and you have multiple forms have? Does it just save the parent entity on the page? Or does it save the nearest entity? How does it know what to do?

Martin A  
So what seemed to be the most reliable was actually selecting it using the data Drupal selector attribute. And based on my experience, that seems to work pretty reliably in terms of saving the parent form, but didn't seem to, you know, accidentally trip up and submit sort of, you know, as you say, with a, you know, nested in any form or anything like that, but you know, it is early days, and there may be more work ahead. In terms of making more reliable, I expect that as people use it with things like paragraphs and other kinds of modules, there will probably be some some more work to be done to make it work across, you know, the 1000s of Drupal modules. But, you know, for certainly for basic use cases, it seems to work pretty well so far.

Leslie G  
Great. And I really appreciate Martin as somebody who supports customer sites with all different kinds of themes, you know, having to scroll down the bottom, especially for permissions and such. It's gonna save me a lot of time. So I appreciate it. Thank

John P  
you. Wait, wait, does it work on the Permissions page?

Martin A  
It works on the Permissions page made sure specifically.

John P  
Oh, you have a winner there.

Nic L  
All right, let's see. It's great utility. And I love these type of modules that are like, if you need it on site, you can install it, but it's not like a It's not one of those ones that has like 50 different features that you don't use. It's very, very specific.

John P  
Awesome, while Martin, thank you for bringing us this your latest creation and let's move on to our primary topic. Okay, Tim, can you give us right? We're talking about the about aqueous Drupal acceleration team. And I'm I'm gonna actually start here by saying the acronym for that. Is dat. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Okay,

Tim P  
it's that team?

John P  
That that Wow. All right. Well, that sounds that sounds cool and fun. So listeners, if you hear us say dat, that's what we're referring to. But can you just give us an overview of what the Drupal acceleration team at Acquia is? Of course,

Tim P  
so adequate. There are many different engineering teams focused on very many different things, all of our products, etc. Our team is focused explicitly on on accelerating Drupal itself. Mostly, you know, originally mostly Drupal core. But lately, and I can get into this more, we found that one of the best ways to work on Drupal core is to work on Drupal contrib and then move it into court later. You know, but the overall mission of the triple acceleration team as we wrote it was we add momentum planning and organization to Drupal core efforts. We ensured Drupal has a future by thinking two to five years ahead.

Nic L  
And so what are you responsible for? Are there other any other things that we've heard about maybe in past releases?

Tim P  
Yeah, so I think, you know, the, the original team was started in May 2011. Okay, and the original focus was on what was called at the time the spark initiative. That was a little bit yeah, you know, it was mostly focused on content authoring kind of thing. So that led to the inclusion of CKEditor into core the first time Quick Edit module, the toolbar module, responsive images, you know, those kinds of things. That was the original focus of the team before I joined in 2011 2012 2013 ish. You know, and then round the time I joined Acquia the focus was on getting Drupal eight out the door. You know, a triple eight release cycle is the longest and in Drupal history and there was a lot of time spent by pretty much the entire team on on preparing, you know finishing the work in core preparing contribute for the original, you know, initial Drupal 8 release, and work like that. Then once after, you know what after Drupal 8.0 was released, work shifted back to sort of new improvements like the API first initiative that led to JSON API and many other improvements, media layouts, which led to we actually did a lot of different work layout work. First, there was block place module, which most people never used. There was field layout module, which also no one probably many people use. And that eventually led to, you know, the layout builder ecosystem, starting with layout API and layout discovery module layout builder module, and then a couple of contrib modules we worked on, in addition to that, you know, and then lately, we've been focused on auto updates on Mac updates module, and paragraphs or module, which, you know, we talked about 20 episodes ago.

Nic L  
So what are the things I'm curious about, as you're talking through? This is, you know, it's definitely helped out by the fact that we're now in semantic versioning. Right, and you can add features between cycles? Are, are some of those project level decisions going through the DAT? as well? Like? Did you have any insight in input into like, moving to semantic versioning? Or was that decision already made? Or is it kind of a community push?

Tim P  
You know, that's an interesting question, because the dat is made up of community members. And primarily, until very recently, I think every single member of that was an established Drupal contributor before they joined the team. That's no longer true. I kind of want to talk about that later. But, you know, at the time, it's just, you know, we, the team was home to some of the major Drupal contributors. And so while a lot of those decisions were absolutely, you know, involve those Acquins, I don't think it was because they worked at Acquia, that they were involved in this discussions. So it's kind of you know, it's kind of hard to draw the line between the two. And that's actually, you know, a big part of our big struggle for us is remembering when to have conversations within our Acquia slack versus our Drupal slack for the, you know, the shared Drupal slack, like we have our own team channels and whatnot. And it's always a push to keep everything as much as possible, like, unless it's about the start time of the next scrum call. We should be having these discussions in public and we and we primarily do. So it really does. You know, we have to put in the effort to keep the unblurred the lines between the two. But it also takes, you know, it's harder if it's not something that we're working on purposefully as a team. You know, we don't take credit for it as like, Oh, this is a DAT initiative or an Acquia initiative. It's all driven.

Nic L  
Yeah. And, and the purpose is to push through before, it's just you can focus on that every day.

Tim P  
Yeah. I mean, the team within the team structure we have, you know, they're engineers. And they're also, you know, product managers, is what the term we use internally at Acquia. But, you know, the people like our Hoshi, who has coordinated or coordinated the coordinators for almost every core initiatives, since the concept of initiatives was started. You know, people like ng you know, web check was the initial was the original member of this team. And, you know, she was responsible for all of that. She's the core maintainer. cetera. So you know, there's, there's some, a lot of meta work that goes on to a lot of like community advocacy, community building, mentoring, etc, that happens in addition to you know, writing code.

Leslie G  
Great, thank you. Oh, speaking about Angie Webb chicken, the original of folks that used to be on the what used to be called the office of the CTO. It's now called DAT  and we were just wondering, what what caused the name change?

Tim P  
Yeah, so the office of the CTO still exists within Acquia. In that it's the people that work directly under Dreis. I think the the, the origin of it was this team that everyone thinks of as Octo. And we were just the Drupal people that worked with Dries or worked for  Dries to work on Drupal at the time, about I think it was 2018. So almost two, four and a half years ago, the company was kind of reorganized into this concept of like engineering and product where you needed both halves. And it was a very internal focused effort to kind of fix things for all the product teams. But at the same time, our team had been very siloed away from the rest of engineering, just working under Dries. And so we were moved under the engineering umbrella internally, and split into an engineering and a product team. And so as we removed away from Dries, we no longer reported to him. And so we were no longer the office of the CTO because people still had this jobs. So we had to abandon our you know, our name that was well known within the community, because the first person to join was was web check. And the second person was Moshe Weitzman, and, you know, there was a lot of community knowledge of that team. So we had to, we actually had one of our team members make up stickers that said, like, formerly known as Octo like fk Octo, we all have them on our laptop because we had to change our name. And we had, I wish I'd found the Google Doc, we had a long brainstorming session and on site of what, what we could name the team. And we had some pretty ridiculous names. Some more pronounceable than others. But we ended up with the Drupal Acceleration Team, mostly because we wanted to be DAT  team. That's just

John P  
if you had answered that question, like, oh, we just wanted a better acronym, I would have been like, oh, yeah, that makes complete sense.

Tim P  
We were removed from our old acronym, and but really, they just wanted a better one.

John P  
So you've mentioned a couple of a couple of team members, both former team members and current team members, right? Just wondering How many members are on the team right now? Like, how big is that Team

Tim P  
789 10. There are looks like maybe 14 engineers, and for, you know, managers or product people. So 14 people writing code on a daily basis. And but you know, a lot of the team is always ever evolving. But I think about half a team has been hired, since we became DAT, like only a few people were leftover from the after days. And then, you know, even more recently, we've been starting to hire people who had never seen Drupal before. Because one of the biggest things is the joke was that that they join this team was the last day you build a Drupal site. Because so many of us so few of us spend actually have the time or the need to work on client work. You know, I came from the agency side, and I moved here. And it's true as last time, I really sat down and had to build a Drupal site for someone else's needs. So we really started to lose, we always, you know, every person that came in was the expert at what people were doing with Drupal. But their knowledge was dated stopped that day. But we got a lot of new people on the team that had never seen before. And seeing Drupal through their eyes, has been really, really beneficial for the team. So we've continued now like couple three years in a row, hiring people, and training them up to be core contributors, instead of picking core contributors and bringing them into the company.

Nic L  
Was you Thank you. Can you expand on that a little bit? Like who has joined from us as a Drupal? Are they like, project managers, project managers? Are they developers?

Tim P  
They're all developers. Yeah, they're engineers. A few of them one, sorry, all of the ones I'm talking about that have literally have never heard before. They're, it's their first or second job out of university. So you know, picking recent college grads, usually CS majors, and this is their first their first job at all. And it was actually really funny. We some of them, we they worked on either core or, you know, major contribute initiatives for a year. And then we were having a hackathon recently. And they said, for our hackathon, we want to build a Drupal site, which I thought sounded silly. At first, I realized, Wait, this is going to be their first Drupal site. Like that's a great idea. Wow. So they built our first Drupal site a year after after a year of contribution.

Nic L  
So yeah, yeah, that's, that's kind of fascinating.

John P  
So it's interesting, because I had the same question Nick just asked, but mine was more from the hiring side. Right. And Team makeup side. So you said there are like, I don't know, I think you said there were like four kind of like product, folks, right? Well, no,

Tim P  
not engineers. So like myself, like I exclude myself from the engineering less even though you know, I could write all the code I want. But my my role is as manager on the team, right. And so there's myself and Alex Bronstein, FL juncea, who's another very longtime contributor, longtime. He's the other manager, Adam balsam, as our is the director of our department. And so the three of us are not, you know, currently employed as engineers. He is the product manager. And he's, I mean, he was the triple six release maintainer, like he, you know, he's the longest tenured aqui, and one of the oldest Drupal contributors I've ever met, like, you know, longest in the project ever. So, yeah. But he's not employed as an engineer.

John P  
Right. Okay. So that that actually helps to answer my question. So I was focusing more on Team makeup. Right. So and then as far as hiring goes, like, how, when you're hiring for new folks, like how many like, is there a requirement like, hey, it would be great if they didn't know anything about Drupal? Or they were very new to Drupal? Or is it? Oh, no, we need like a mid mid level Drupal engineer to be able to kind of help build up those people that don't know, like, what's, what's the mix there?

Tim P  
Yeah, I mean, the, the real answer is that it just, it reflects aqueous hiring practices at the time. You know, every time we've hired we hire the kind, we're following the same practices. So the recent influx of recent graduates is, you know, a priority with Acquia, you know, entry level hires, you know, to grow the team that way. So, You know, we'll take the best engineers, we'll take the best college grads and turn them into the best engineers. You know, we'll take anybody but as each each time we've hired the type of pool, that the makeup of the pool we're hiring from has been different. But those are that's set by Acquia. More than anything else. Interesting.

John P  
Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, that's, that's super interesting and great insight, right, as you said, like, great insight to get those perspectives. And I imagine when you're going through a hiring process, you have the ability, like if you need a perspective, right, you're like, Oh, we're building project browser, right? Like, let's, let's see, if we can get somebody from I don't know, that has this specific skill set to to come onto this team like that. That's a, that's a pretty interesting power to have, or ability to have, I guess.

Tim P  
I mean, it's been really fortuitous. Because Project Browser is a, if you know, if and when it gets out of the core will be the first, you know, decoupled framework built app within Drupal. And, you know, I mean, I'm a PHP developer, originally, but the recent college grads, just as much JavaScript as they do anything else. So it was actually the perfect time to have a bunch of new people on the team that wanted to or had some experience with JavaScript to build, throw them on to something like this. And not have them even have to know what a template php file was, or with anything, yeah. They're not burdened by the history of Drupal development.

John P  
Oh, man, I want to ask a JavaScript framework question now. So like, and I guess this is kind of related to hiring, right? So if you if are you guys actively hiring more folks with JavaScript experience in a plan? So you talked about that two to five year plan, right? Like, are you hiring more folks with JavaScript experience in an effort or a not plan to say like, Hey, in the next two to five years, like this is going to be a very big trend, not that it isn't already that we need to be ready for?

Tim P  
I think I'm in the wrong place to answer that question.

John P  
That's a totally acceptable answer.

Tim P  
I wish I could say it was thought out that well, for me, from my perspective, but you know, as I've only been in ng command, well, I've been an engineer manager for two years now. We've hired quite a few people. But really, what happens is they say, you get to hire people. And I say, great, and I go and we do it. Like we it's not, oh, now would be a good time to hire. Like, I'm not involved in that. I just when they tell me I can hire people. We hire people. Yeah. And so you know, I mean, with the way the tech industry is going right now, the way that the financial markets are going right now, you know, I don't know the next time I'll hire people, but they they told me I can I'll be very excited about it.

Leslie G  
I really think that the the focus you have on bringing folks in new graduates that might not have any Drupal knowledge at all, and you know, building the Drupal knowledge up, that's a that's a huge need in the Drupal community across the board. So lessons learned from your team would definitely help others do the same thing. So sharing that information here on this podcast is, you know, hopefully going to get some wheels turning Hey, that's a great idea. And why don't we try doing that as well. So thanks for that. And the second thing is, as one of the coalition leads for Project Browser, because our focus is on folks new to Drupal, and site builders, having new people that don't really know Drupal help build it helps with that, with that goal of making it useful for for everybody, not just people with ingrained Drupal knowledge. So, yeah, those two things, I think, really work well.

Tim P  
Yeah. I mean, it was great. We had, our team has been working on Project Browser since last since a year ago. And in this summer, we had a new new hire, join our team. And within, you know, two weeks of his thing, he I think he opened like seven issues and the Project Browser Shut up. Like, this is not how I expect a web app to work. And he was absolutely right. And every single part of it made it feel maybe a little less Jubilee, but in a good way. And we're already in a project browser. So, so new and different from the most of the regular Drupal admin UI. They're all incredible insights from someone from who just had just graduated. And they've never, never seen Drupal, but knew how the internet works.

Nic L  
Yeah, yeah, it helps to get that outside perspective, because you're at this point, I've been doing Drupal for almost 15 years. I'm used to have all the Drupal isms. They feel normal to me, and it takes some outside perspective to sometimes question those assumptions. Absolutely. So speaking of that, how does the DAT determine what parts of the project it's going to work on? So you mentioned that it's shifted, you know, aside from initiatives in general, but it's also shifted from core specific stuff to working on and contributing, moving those things to core. Like what who set That, who sets the roadmap for da Te,

Tim P  
right? So when we were Octo, I was st. Because we were the office of the CTO, and he was the CTO. And he's also the project lead of Drupal. Now that we've shifted, and we don't like that don't report directly to juries in any way. You know, we rely on the product managers within our company. So Gabor Now, previously, there was Matthew Grasmick who wrote the original prototype for Project visor, he was a he was our product lead. And so the vision came directly from him, you know, in consultation with old team and with Dries, but you know, whatever Acquia we set, we do things by quarter, you know, we have quarterly goals and tracker metrics and all that, you know, internal stuff. And it's kind of hard to map the reality of Drupal onto that, because the release cycle of Drupal core has nothing, no acknowledgement of how quarters work, you know, it doesn't fall nicely at all. And DrupalCon moves, for example, like, you know, it's different quarters in different years. So it can be really hard to kind of map that onto quarters system. But you know, we have to come up with what we're going to work on, what impact we're going to have, and what we think it's important to build next, and then we go into it.

Leslie G  
Yeah, so related to that. You mentioned that I think you talked about this earlier. But do the priorities change when a new core versions around the corner? And how do they change?

Tim P  
Yeah, well, and Nick, you referred to reference the semantic versioning thing earlier, like the minor releases, I'll start with minor releases first. You know, we definitely, especially back a couple years ago, in the 8384 era, you know, it was JSON API, media and lampholder. We just so happens to have teams working on this three big things happening in core at that time. And we ended up having to stagger them, like they didn't all go in at the exact same time, because there's just a bottleneck of resources available. So we were able to work, you know, work through all of those things. But we were trying to land three major features on core at once. And so lately instead with, for example, CKEditor. Five, it was it May, it was much more. There are many advantages to developing that module as a control module. But the intention that it would always go into core, just the short answer, the short reason is the test runs faster. When you run a core a merge request or a patch against Drupal core, it takes about an hour on the test bot, you run and contribute, like five minutes, just even that alone, like that's a huge amount of time. But also the ability to you know, commit your own things like we had a team of six people and three of them could commit. And it was like always making sure we had some person able to commit, but you can always land things, as opposed to going through the entire core patch workflow, to land every single iterative improvement allows us to work more iteratively. And so, you know, with that, so for minor versions, you know, we're always aiming to get something into the next minor version. So 10.1 is coming up in the summer. And, you know, our hope is to get either automatic updates or project browser or both into it. We'll see what happens. There's some infrastructure, I have to tell you, Lesley, but there's some upstream things that we are working on or waiting on. But you know, there's always attempts to try to land new features in the new minor versions. As far as major versions, I mean, I've only been on the team. Well, it's three, three releases now, eight, nine and 10. There's definitely be affectionately referred to as Voltron, we kind of just abandon all the individual efforts that we've working on build one team, to just do the things that are blocking the beta, as we talked about, sort of pre show like the beta release is our deadline for major things like this, you know, triple 10.0 is coming out, we'll be out by the time this podcast airs. But our you know, our team is, you know, our main deadline was the beta deadline in September, okay. And so when we, we definitely have a ramp up in advance of a new major release, and kind of all hands on deck moments for that. But as soon as the beta is over, we can go kind of go back to what we were previously working on.

Nic L  
Will you also help with some of getting contributed the next version? Because, you know, there's always some lag time in modules being ready for the next version. Now Drupal nine was way better Drupal. 10. Seems like it's even better than that. But do you? Do you also just for example, with the vector bot, or with like the upgrade status module, and just like providing patches, is that something that you guys do on your team too, or no?

Tim P  
That's a complicated answer to that question. The short answer is like God were hurt. She does a lot of that. I mean, he maintains the update status module. This comes back to the thing I was referring to earlier about like the blurring between, you know, my Drupal community responsibilities versus my Aquia responsibilities. And the short answer is that other than Gabor no one on our team spends a officially allocated time on contrib like modules like that. But for example, Wim Leers maintains the CDN module and he spent a day or two, making sure it was ready, we all got every module maintainer got the email saying, you know, please update your, get your module ready. And we can take the time to work on that, you know, during during company time, but it's not a concentrated effort. Now, there's you can maybe 20 episodes from now you can have another podcast with the triple integrations team, who is another engineering team at Acquia, who kind of stole our team name because they wanted to be the debt to our debt. But the dribble integrations team is another engineering team at Acquia that has had a large effort towards module compatibility. Take a parry is the most community facing person on that team. I think he was single handedly responsible for 100 modules or so being ported. You know, or maybe last time maybe more? I don't know. Sorry, Jacob, or you're welcome to pick on how I exaggerated that. But there are other efforts around that but that's not something our team is focused on.

John P  
Interesting so you named dropped earlier and said that you used to work for Forgeries right in your in your previous in your previous acronym can incantation of your team. I'm wondering, now these days now that you're the DAT? how closely does dries work with DAT team?

Tim P  
So that's a an interesting question that the Dries the product lead of Drupal or the you know, the BDFL versus Dries, the CTO of Acquia. He has he wears those two hats. I mean, he wears other hats, the board board of the DA et cetera. But at least those two I talked to Drupal Dries. But I don't often interact with Acquia Dries. Gabbor, who the most name dropped on this podcast so far, I believe, works, you know, with Dries is much, much more closely. And as alluded to Matthew Grasmick before him, like Dries is in the works with the product managers to kind of set the direction of everything. Okay, the only other time I really, you know, there are a lot of times that Dries will reach out to our team and it's subject matter experts for things like some of his blog posts or Drupal Dries note at Drupal con, to kind of check in with us and whatnot, but, okay, it has filtered through Gabor, you know, he has, I'm sure an important role. But as I said, most of our teams interactions with him would be as you know, via Drupal side of things, not the Acquia side.

John P  
So so there isn't an instance and remember, this is like a totally safe space, like this Dries is never gonna hear this, right? There's no instance where where Dries goes like, Hey, Tim, this one thing is really bugging me. Can you like go in and fix that?

Tim P  
The last time he said that, to me was we need layout builder in core.

Nic L  
out absolutely minor things little

Tim P  
like this is you know, the Do or die moment for Drupal. And we need to learn this feature, Drupal will cease to exist, please finish layout builder.

Nic L  
than we did it. No pressure.

John P  
No, no.

Tim P  
You know, and he was right. I mean, I think, you know, the more I talk to people about Layout builder the more I hear that people, you know, it has been very impactful for Drupal. So I can't say he was wrong. It's great. Love it,

John P  
use it every day.

Nic L  
So switching gears slightly, I'm curious about the team focus is the whole DAT team 100% focused on contribution, that focus on what they're contributing to, and Drupal might change a little bit. But are they all focused on contribution accelerating Drupal 100% of their time? Or are they sometimes working on internal aqueous stuff or client billable stuff? Or is it like if you're on the DAT, you're working on the Drupal project, somehow, some way?

Tim P  
I will say I think in our entire history, I believe there's two times ever that we wrote code that was not GPL and was not publicly available. Okay, one was a prototype that I don't even know what it did. And I didn't work on it. But I think it happened. So I'm going to count it. And the second one was the internal half of what we call the Aqua migrate accelerator, which was, you know, as a UI to Migrate Drupal 7 sites, two D9  or D 10. And the UI was like a JS app, I think it was probably in React. And the React code itself was just, you know, closed repo. But the plumbing itself, every single part of the Migrate experience was contributed back to Drupal. Either core through, migrate or migrate plus. And then the majority of the work was vetting patches for hundreds of contrib modules. And if they didn't work then writing those patches, and every single day was, you know, we had a massive json file of a patches file of like, here are all the patches you need for all of these modules in order for them to be vetted as good enough to run. And there was, you know, the entire, you know, for example, field collection, two paragraphs migration was written by Acquia and the panelizer to layout builder, or, you know, all of those big migrations, not just the one to one one, like the, you know, the same module to the same module, but cross, you know, to a new contributor, Basel, those are some really big tricky engineering problems that our team worked on. And every single one of that is, you know, either has been committed or is still in patch for public Yandina. No. But yeah, otherwise, though, every everything else we work on is either, you know, somewhere on GitHub as a prototype, or it's on d.o.

Leslie G  
Alright, so Tim, great things you've been talking about. Thanks for contributed everything back. the Drupal community definitely appreciates everything that team does. What is the team working on? Now? I know, you mentioned the Project Browser and package manager automatic updates. So what else is your team working on now?

Tim P  
What else? That's not good enough?

Leslie G  
Yeah, that's, that's great. I mean,

Tim P  
the short answer is, that's what we're working on right now. I mean, as you know, in over the summer was CKEditor 5 was our big engineering effort. You know, getting that was an incredible amount of work to do. And we have the right team to do it. And the support from CK source and the rest of the community that committers to do it, but it was a lot. And that when that when that wrapped up, it was kind of kind of focused on the finishing touches of D 10. But then, since then, it's been primarily auto updates and project browser. And then the last thing is there's I don't know if you've talked about Next Drupal before. Next, JS based Drupal. I know, you mentioned that I'm sure it was mentioned last in the last episode as well. But so there's a chapter three has the Next JS Drupal implementation. And then there's a pantheon implementation of it. Now there's an awkward implementation of it, you know. And so that's another thing our team is working on is the sort of Next JS implementation of for hosting. And so, you know, it's been pretty cool. I don't, I haven't been hands on with it at all. It's been a small team. But that's the other the other things we're working on in addition.

Leslie G  
Great. And I guess I can speak as one of the initiative leads that, you know, the help the DAT  team has, you know, given to the Project Browser initiative, and it's been incredible. So appreciate that. And I'm sure the Drupal community will benefit from from all that work. So thanks.

Nic L  
So those two things that you're mainly focused on right now? Definitely, you know, I'm kind of in the same boat, they seem like they're probably one of the biggest priorities for the Drupal community. They're definitely one of the bigger things so they'll help out going down the road. But I'm curious as somebody who you probably spend a lot more time thinking about what Drupal as a project needs than I do. And many of our listeners, I'm curious if there's anything that you think is like, on your radar, that you're you're maybe not working on it yet, but you you can't wait to jump into or you think you need you'll need to be working on in the next year or two. Yeah,

Tim P  
I think there's there are a couple of things. And I can give you some links to share in the Docker notes later. There are a couple ideas. Well, let me let me pause and pivot to the ideas queue. I don't know if we've talked about this before. But the proposals for big things, or new things or anything for double core are handled in a separate issue from Drupal core issues, where there's bugs and features and whatnot. And it's in the ideas queue. And it's a project on an org called ideas. And there's its own workflow of how things go from a proposed thing. And that's how ideas become initiatives. I know there are some really interesting things in there, you know, every time I feel kind of uninspired or just kind of like, you know, today was the same day as last yesterday, I go look at the edges cube and kind of get excited about what's new and coming in trouble. I think for me, the biggest thing is that Drupal is very good at many things. There are other things that we do as well, that other things may or may not do better. I think that Well, you know, we've always tried to expand people's capabilities, I think it might be time to kind of circle back to making sure that the things we do best, are actually the best in the world. So things like our content modeling a date, like data modeling in general. You know, our content type system is incredible. What you can do with view modes and different field types, and it is fantastic. And I but I don't think we should rest on that too much. I think we should pay less attention to it just because it's good. Sometimes we need to pay extra attention to the things that are what we do well. So there's there you know, CKEditor 5 is a huge step forward for content authoring. But I think for content modeling is kind of the next Same thing I would like to get, you know, see what see what's available out there?

Nic L  
Yeah, that's a good point. Because you think about things like, I just went through this exercise with the client, you know, in you do you have to do this for any for most projects, but your Drupal has a good system for image styles and presets and responsive images and stuff, but like, and it's really powerful, but like, translating the needs of a project to what that is, in Drupal is, is a huge part of any project. I mean, you have like, Okay, I need to create, like, the ability to like create, first, you have to create all the image presets like, these are the sizes we need, then we need to map that to a responsive image preset and say, okay, at these breakpoints, or whatever, use these ones, and then you need to assign that to display mode, sometimes, depending on, you know, where it's being used, and then find a way to map that back to what file is actually uploaded, like, Okay, what do we need the person to upload in order to get this and Drupal has a lot of flexibility and a lot of support and control for a lot of this stuff. But those are the types of problems that it's hard. It's, it's hard as just a standalone contributor to kind of look at that system and be like, Okay, here's where that user experience or developer experience could be improved. But I think the DHT is kind of an A place to be like, Okay, we're going to dedicate some significant resources and thought and engineering power behind this kind of thing. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that that's the next thing you work on. But that's the kind of thing that I think you guys do that, as a lone contributor in Drupal is a little bit more difficult to do.

Tim P  
He said, a couple of things that I want to come back, I want to touch on that, I think the I'll go in reverse order. I don't want anyone to hear about this team, and how many people we have on and all the things you do and think that it devalues individual contribution at all. Because there are there's so much more one person can get done than the team sometimes do. Because you have to have discussions and meetings and planning and opinions. And then you end up with maybe something too generic and not opinionated enough. Like they're the ability to have material effect on Drupal. No, this wasn't what you're saying. So I'm not trying to provide you with like the ability to for some one person to come in and have a huge effect on Drupal and, or at least one specific area that is, you know, kind of what got me into trouble in the first place. What keeps me here? Absolutely. So I don't want anyone to think well, you know, I'm not on a team of Drupal contributors, so then I shouldn't bother because they'll just do it. That's definitely not the case, even I mean, let's face it, you know, the Project Browser is a perfect example, like Chris and Lesley. It's their initiative. And there are many other contributors who write just as much code like we have probably the most people thinking about it on a daily basis. But, you know, we're one part of the team of contributors and volunteers working on it. And we're only really focused, my team is really only focused on the code side, that's one half of what project browsers initiative is even about, like the site builder side of things, is just even more important, probably, and just as much work. So all that said, you know, I think there are places that we think that works the best when we are joining an effort and not taking on an effort. You know, we collaborating with the community or empowering one volunteer solo contributor to join a team of people. You know, because we hold everything and open channels, and everything, all the discussions. You know, we're already remote team, we're all over the world. We're already in all these different time zones, and we're working on different things. Like it's felt seamless to work in Project Browser, and forget which people are aqueous and which aren't, you know, like, you don't think about that you just ping the people you need to talk to and work with them. So I think that's been really great.

John P  
Yeah, I think one one point to your, to your previous point about, like, needing needing a team versus being an individual contributor, right? There are plenty of small to medium sized issues that one person can, like tackle on their own that like a might not be an initiative might not be on somebody's radar might not require a team of 14 people to like, collaborate on right. And like that's, that's definitely super important to make sure that those medium to smaller issues are getting done. And those those kinds of tasks for initiatives that that are kind of in not to be derogatory or negative, but like too small for a large team to work on. Right? Like they there's a lot of power there to be able to jump in and just get one thing done and be like, Okay, it's done. And now it's in core or it's in this module, or it's, you know, it's a contribution.

Tim P  
Yeah, that's actually something we've we recently rediscovered for ourselves. I've mentioned a couple times we had a hackathon we we've kind of evolved it to is a hackathin model where we have one in November, where we try to work as in groups. And really, as I mentioned, we have three different things. We're working on trying to cross things up. So people get to know the other members of the team. Because there's being distributed, you know, unrelated to global pandemics, like you know, it's important to have cross work as much as possible. But then in the, you know, May is June ish, depending on when Drupal cons and release cycles are, we tried to have a second sort of hackathon that it's really just a low hanging fruit Buster kind of thing. Like, go through the keys, find the issues that were like, hey, you know what, we got really close on that. And it stalled out on X, like, can we get this back moving again, I tried to just go through all those like tantalizingly close things, and close them up, finally. And that feels the most to me, like my previous to Acquia role within the community of just, you know, just going in and just working on as many things as possible just to help move the ball forward. And then coming back next week and doing the same thing, like,

John P  
yeah, I just had a visual in my head of like, Drupal Fruit Ninja, where like a bunch of aqui ins are just going through and taking low hanging fruit and like slashing through it like,

Tim P  
yeah. Oh, yeah, I remember that iOS game. That's good, good game. But yes, that's exactly what it feels like. And it's like, it's very satisfying to finish something. A lot of these initiatives we work on are multi year things, you know, layout builder was almost two years long. And it can get, it can be a lot to work on one thing without something to show for it for that long. So it is always nice to have a nice little breather and say, hey, look, I got this done.

Leslie G  
Yeah. Great. Going back to something we talked about a few minutes ago. 10 being the idea queue. You know, do you take anything from there and actually work on any r&d tasks for Drupal, you know, that may become a future core initiative.

Tim P  
You're in, there are a lot of people on my team with a lot of good ideas, I am probably the worst person at coming up with ideas ever. Like I've never had an original idea in my life. Everything I've worked on in Drupal is someone else's idea that I was like, that's really cool. I want to help implement that. You know, I couldn't. But there thankfully, I have very many coworkers who do not suffer from that and have really very many good ideas. And those are the kinds of things that, you know, we end up building. But no, I don't know that. You know, our team is very altruistically focused on what is best for Drupal. And, as I said, the only time we've ever really worked on something that was even vaguely focused on Acquia really was the Migrate accelerate, which was still really very much for the good of the Drupal community. Because, you know, if it's too hard to go from D7, I mean, it is hard to go from D 7 to a modern version of Drupal. And it's so easy to go from D nine to D 10. Or even you know, from most later versions of D eight to the nine that like, we don't want people to get the wrong message or just stuck or get stuck on the on D7 or just go to something else. So to make that process better, was a huge thing for Acquia because many Drupal seven sites to a modern version of Drupal, you know, as possible, and that's why all the stuff was released to the community, like every site should be offered Drupal 7 as fast as possible. Who cares? who hosts it?

Nic L  
Absolutely. I mean, honestly, as as a developer of Drupal sites, I would say probably other than the two big ones that are working right now, I think automatic updates. And project browser will be a huge boon. I mean, I think I think the gap that project brwoser closes is kind of getting the site builder back in, that's like a somewhat slightly advanced site builder, getting back into it, because like right now you have to learn Git, you have to learn composure, you have to learn a CI pipeline. But if you can, once you close that gap, that's huge. But I think the other thing that really stands out to me as something that Drupal is missing, when I look at other other CMS is is is theming like Drupal has a super powerful theming system and it's easy to spend like with a starter kits, it's super easy to spin up like a sub theme now and or I guess it's on a sub theme. I don't know if you call it anymore, but starter kit is like a way to get a clean start. But that's a that's a big barrier to entry for somebody like you. You're kind of the theme ecosystem. Just there's no real easy plug and play modules that aren't like one or two or three like if you choose one of the two or three plug and play modules like your site's gonna look like every other site. You know what I mean?

Tim P  
Yeah, it's funny. Start Kit is something I forgot to mention that we worked on. I don't want to take away credit from anyone else because I don't know who else worked on it, but I know Lorry escala who's on my team is was, you know, the chief architect and driver of the end of that. That work and it's been huge, as you said for themes.

Nic L  
I don't know how I missed it, but I just discovered it like two months ago. was like, much better.

Tim P  
Yeah, it was it only landed in the last in 2022

Nic L  
Oh, okay. Yeah, so So ever so mister too long because because I converted a I used a. Olivero is a base theme for site and I just spent so much time like, oh, writing stuff. And then I discovered starter kit, and I rewrote that whole theme using starter kit, like two hours. And I don't have to worry about, you know, overrides or breakages or, you know, all the other stuff that I didn't need. No, that's great.

Tim P  
Yeah, I remember I remember it being discussed at the last Drupal con i was at in Seattle. But yeah, I think it landed. Oh, no, it was. Honestly, that's the problem. Since every year, I used to mark my Drupal years by which Drupal con i was at that year, which to Drupal causes that. And so for those reasons, on top of every other reason, everything since 2020, has blurred together. So that landed in core in 2021. April, starter kit theme as itself. Yeah. And we're sorry, there was just further improvements made this past spring to allow it. I think it was more Alpha back then. And now it's more, you know, more stable this this past spring.

Nic L  
Initiative as part of the DAT to to get these get the news out there. I'm sure it was out there and I just wasn't paying attention.

John P  
I mean, I think I think it's it begs the bigger question and something we talked about earlier, right? Like, maybe there's a future for a you know, a JS theme for Drupal where like, you don't necessarily have to use Drupal as the theming theming engine, you can kind of bring your own your own thing, or I don't know, maybe there's a specific JS framework theme for Drupal at some

Nic L  
point. But it sounds like the Next JS and the Drupal state and JSON API and all that stuff is kind of moving, slowly moving Drupal in that direction as well. But

John P  
so sad for you, Nick, I don't think Drupal theming is going to get any easier other than to switch to JavaScript.

Nic L  
Oh, no. I mean, I have to say it like Drupal. Theming isn't? It's not that it's hard is that it's a I mean, there's some things that are hard about it always is that you need to design something from the ground up if you have moderately complex site, and you don't want to look like everything else. Like if you're okay with, you know, an completely accessible site out of the box with all of arrow and just tweaking a couple colors. It's perfect. But if you're like a, you know, a small business with without a really large budget, getting a custom Drupal theme is a big ask, but for for most of the clients that I work with, not I mean, it's fine. It's standard fare, it's not a it's not a blocker for me or my projects,

Tim P  
you need to hire a professional for that. Yeah, yeah.

John P  
Yeah. And to be fair, in in an agency setting, it's a it's a huge time suck for projects is is front end theming. But that's a conversation for for a different day. Tim, let's move back to something you said kind of at the beginning of the show, right? So the team is doing planning two to five years into like the future, right? And you had already said that, like maybe maybe that's a little bit like, above you or like there are people on the team that are doing that you're maybe not directly involved with that. But I'm kind of wondering like, one what is in the two to five year plan down the road? And two, other than the ideas queue that you just shared with us? Is there any, like, long term roadmap that somebody could look at?

Tim P  
I'll answer the last question first, for just now there's no roadmap, not that it's not public, it just doesn't exist. It's not written down anywhere. So the within the product organization, part of that at Acquia. You know, there was an exercise we do every once a while of write a press release dated five years from now? And what would it be talking about about Drupal? And it was a really helpful exercise to kind of see like, what, what kinds of things should we be talking about in five years? And then how do we work backwards from there. And that's been the exercise that we've used. And it doesn't really result in quite a roadmap, per se. It's more just sort of like, identifying the gaps, identifying what people will need or want or what might be different or what should we really not invest in because it could all change tomorrow. And so it's more just a framework for how we think about it. And so when you know as I read our rather than lofty Lee worded mission statement, but it said we think two to five years ahead doesn't say we plan two to five years.

John P  
Got it? So we won't see we won't see Drupal built on Bitcoin in the next two to five years. I'm the wrong guest to talk about that. That's that's fine. It was a poorly placed Bitcoin or cryptocurrency joke. Interesting. Okay. So, you know, but I will say the ideas queue that you shared i as when you shared it, I kind of scrolled through it and was looking at some of the things, there's some, there's some absolute gold in there, which is, which is very interesting. So, you know, I think that's kind of a good indicator as to, or would you agree, let me ask the question, would you agree that that's a good indicator as to some of the things you may be working on in the in the future?

Tim P  
Yeah, I mean, like, we're absolutely, we don't have a secret button, there's in the back room, like we participate in this same way everyone else does. So you know, any of the good ideas we have are going to be in the ideas queue as well. Because, as I said, we can't do it ourselves. Right, you know, with with all different shifting, everything's from quarter to quarter. You know, we need to have every initiative team should be comprised of people from all different parts of Drupal community, you know, different agencies, different hosting companies, different independent, you know, volunteers, the more you know, the more different aspects there are, the better. If we have an initiative that's entirely made up of aqueous, it's gonna be a bad time for everyone. And so, yeah, we absolutely have to participate in the same processes everything else. So yeah, the ideas key was great. I mean, as I said, like, I don't, I don't have I don't think of myself as someone who comes up with good ideas. And it's not something that I participate in that level, but I can read through and be like, That is a really good idea. I'm a connoisseur of good ideas, creative one. There are so many, there are many people that have always been people in the Drupal community who are just, it's just really, I don't know how they do it, but they come up with it, or they, it feels pressured, you know, they're looking ahead, further than I could think. I'll give it just a shot like Christina Jimena Su, Lola bot. See, Karina who's, you know, been involved with Albero and Claro. And everything else, you know, a couple of his ideas in there are hers, a couple of those ideas in there, I think she's collaborated on and you know, just so I always pay attention to like, What is she thinking about? Sasha Eggenberger Lowry, escalate like this. There's, you know, those thinkers. And I'm glad they're here, because we need, we need the we need everybody.

John P  
That's, that's super interesting. So Tim, you actually, I just want to piggyback on something you just said, you mentioned. And, you know, we can go look at the marketplace on drupal.org. And we can see that aqui is like at the top of the top of that list. Right? And I imagine in you know, not based in any any fact that, you know, the Drupal acceleration team is probably a large factor in in Aquia being towards the top of that list. You just mentioned about kind of distributing like who's, who's committing to core and who's you know, who's working on some of these initiatives and issues like outside of Acquia and that kind of being the power. I'm wondering, is Aqua actively working to try to distribute some of this stuff and if they are do you have any insight as to how they typically try to do that?

Tim P  
I guess again, I mean art back to the Aquia versus Acquians like Acquia the faceless entity isn't doing anything about any of this you know, I mean, like right you know, Acquians out Aqua care about these things, and Drees is an aqua and aqua, aqua and like, but there's no top down directive from the CEO or the board or anyone else about, you know, how we do that. I mean, we happen, we continue to be one of the top if not the top contributor by the marketplace rankings. But you know, it's not always let me take a step back. There are many different ways to increase your company's ranking on that marketplace. And one of them is through code contributions. And I would wager that is a large part of why we're where we are. But there are other ways to contribute as well. And there are other companies that employ, you know, contributors. I think if there's some, some people who are so prolific they can out contribute, you know, teams of people. So, you know, I don't think that my earlier statement about how I personally think initiative teams should be built up with people from all different way. That's, that's my opinion. I think that's something you know, Gabor would, as the, you know, resident scholar on how initiatives work or have worked or haven't worked, would absolutely agree that, you know, any one viewpoint shouldn't be driving anything. And but, you know, as I said, like, with time zones, project browser has been been great. We have, you know, people in all different time zones, and it's almost a continuous flow of development. Like we need someone placed well placed in like Alaska or Hawaii or something that keep it really 24/7 But otherwise, like we have really good coverage. And I remember working on on Views. And some of the later things, especially with, you know, some people in previous necks like we literally had 24 hour coverage on initiatives. And yeah, and then you then you can take a break, you can you can work on something else for a week, you can be sick, you can do all these things and not feel like you're burdening or disrupting or bottlenecking anyone else? You know it, the more people the better,

John P  
basically. Yeah. And as I asked that question, and as I was listening to your answer, it dawned on me that it's not necessarily an Acquia thing to solve, right? It's definitely like, hey, community, like we need more more, you know, larger companies to dedicate, potentially dedicate teams, but also, you know, it's, it's something that I think, you know, the community could could focus on a little bit to say, like, Hey, we're gonna kind of try to distribute this work and, and kind of get that more global landscape involved if, if possible, and where it makes the most sense.

Tim P  
Yeah, honestly, I mean, I, I'm very privileged and lucky to be at a company that pays for me to contribute 100% of the time. Sure. And this is the only company I've worked at that's done that, but there are others. And, yeah, I think the hardest thing is, I'm trying to envision myself nine years ago, contributing at the level I did, because all of us and core stuff was pre pre my time at Acquia. But still, it felt like, there was a secret room where there was an in club or whatever, whatever you want to call it, that I was just kind of like working outside of that, and getting stuff done in spite of not being in the group. And then I joined what I thought was the in group and realize there isn't one. And I know that if I tell anyone that they won't believe me, until maybe you can work back when you find out there isn't one. And I've been a part of that was I just, you know, ng Byron was such an influence is such an influence on my career, and my, my life in general. I just wanted to work wherever she worked. And I was willing, you know, grateful to be able to do that for so long until she moved on to left Acquia. And but yeah, there is no secret group. And I think but that was the biggest thing for me was that it was hard to envision being able to work in a silo or in a vacuum by myself at a company, even if I was funded, and be able to achieve the same level of contribution that if I had been on a big team, but in hindsight, I think that's just incorrect. It's just about a confidence thing, or not realizing that there is no backroom that you just have to do it in Drupal slack, like everyone else.

Nic L  
Well, I think that's a good segue into our next question before we close out, which is if somebody wants to get involved in, obviously, if it's one of the two main initiatives you're working on right now, you can go into the Drupal slack Project Browser channel or project on drupal.org. Same thing for automatic updates. But if they're looking just for more general, integrate, you know, working with the DEA team on something, you know, where's the best place to do that? Other than applying for a job there and getting a job there?

Tim P  
Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's the funny thing is we even though, to the rest of our company, and to the all the community, I mean, to the community, we're still Octo, whatever, but like, even the rest of the company, they think of us as a monolith as that, you know, as I said, we have these like sub teams within them, the Project Browser and auto updates, teams, etc. Like, you know, I'm the manager, but like, some of the engineers just don't talk to each other, across those teams, they have no reason to, so they feel separate. So they like there are people in debt more connected to other project browser volunteers, than they are to their teammates within that their you know, auto updates team, they spend more time talking to other auto updates volunteers, contributors than they do talking to other aqui engineers. So the easiest way to if you want to hang out with some that peoples just work on one of the things they're working on in public, because that's what they're doing. That's, as we talked about earlier, there's no other thing that we're spending our time on. Like, it's all it's all in that public sphere. But just in general, as far as jumping in like, every once in a while, and in the contribute channel in Drupal slack, some will just jump in and say, hey, you know, I want to contribute? I don't know. Wow. And then someone like inevitably will reply to them and start a thread and say, Well, what do you what do you know? Or what are you interested in? And they're found a home. It's very, you know, kind of async version of what happens at Drupal con mentoring, where you walk into a room, and it's kind of overwhelming and you just find a table and then someone comes over and helps you and then by the end of the day, you've probably contributed to

Nic L  
Drupal. Interesting, yeah.

John P  
Well, Tim, we appreciate your time. And thank you for joining us again and and discussing what it is that dat does.

Tim P  
Glad to have been asked back I know we almost talked about this in our in the Project Browser thing and I'm glad we didn't over overtake too much of that discussion. So thanks for having me. Absolutely.

Nic L  
So For our listeners, do you have questions or feedback you can reach out to talking drupal on Twitter the handle @talkingdrupal or by email [email protected], you can connect with our hosts and other listeners on Drupal slack in the TalkingDrupal channel.

John P  
You can promote your Drupal community event on talking Drupal. Learn more talkingdrupal.com/tdpromo. You can

Nic L  
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John P  
And thank YOU patrons for supporting talking Drupal, your support is greatly appreciated. You can learn more about becoming a patron at talkingdrupal.com and clicking the become a patron button. Alright, we've made it to the end of our show. Tim, if folks wanted to get a hold of you to talk about all things Drupal how what's the best way for them to do that?

Tim P  
So you can follow me on Mastodon or Twitter, TimPlunkett, or Drupal slack. Honestly, it's probably the best place. You could just drop me a line in there, and I'm happy to chat about Drupal.

John P  
There you go. Leslie, what about you?

Leslie G  
You can find me at Leslie G. On drupal.org. Or @LeslieGlynn, on Twitter. And you can also find out you know, if you want to help out with the Project Browser initiative, just join on the Project Browser channel on Drupal slack.

John P  
Nic Laflin What about you?

Nic L  
@nicxvan pretty much everywhere 

John P  
and I'm John Picozzi. You can find me on all the major social networks and Mastodon thank you for that reminder @johnpicozzi, and you can find out about EPAM at epam.com.

Nic L  
And if you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking to you guys next week. Have a good one everyone.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai